2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Vasconia
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Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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McMika98 wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 08:42
Vasconia wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 08:40
Wouter wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 13:04


Max said yesterday that major steps had been taken at RBR. You can also see that when you look at Ferrari.
However ... he also said that Mercedes had taken even bigger steps and that is clearly visible.
I was a comparison to last year`s performance and Ferrari has lost almost a second, while RB almost has not improved and Mercedes has improved around two tenths of a second If I am not wrong. So I can only see excuses from RB, sadly.
Worse still most midfield teams made a jump and lapping similar to Max pace last year.
Now with more precise information:

Racing Point -0.921
Williams -0.737
Renault -0.493
McLaren -0.473
AlphaTauri -0.360
Mercedes -0.323s
Red Bull +0.038
Haas +0.619
Ferrari +0.920
Alfa Romeo +1.119

So RB/Ferrari guys, you can´t beat what was already the best car if you make a slower car. #-o #-o #-o

selvam_e2002
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Joined: 22 Oct 2018, 10:52

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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If Meclaren build good car with Mercedes engine, then the RB life is very difficult. They will be fighting with Midfiled. Honda need to up their game or disappear from F1.
The most of the performance coming from chassis from Newly not from Honda power unit and engine.
If they put Renault engine they may closer to Mercedes.

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 09:25
If Meclaren build good car with Mercedes engine, then the RB life is very difficult. They will be fighting with Midfiled. Honda need to up their game or disappear from F1.
The most of the performance coming from chassis from Newly not from Honda power unit and engine.
If they put Renault engine they may closer to Mercedes.
If Honda leave F1, Red Bull will be out of F1. No one else will sell them an engine - Renault will laugh in their faces, Mercedes and Ferrari have sufficient customer teams. Honda is Red Bull's only option. That's why they're being nice about them in public so much - they know they're in the last chance saloon so far as engines are concerned.

As for the performance all being from Newey, that's a bit silly really and exactly the attitude that will drive Honda away.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

e30ernest
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 08:47

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 09:25
If Meclaren build good car with Mercedes engine, then the RB life is very difficult. They will be fighting with Midfiled. Honda need to up their game or disappear from F1.
The most of the performance coming from chassis from Newly not from Honda power unit and engine.
If they put Renault engine they may closer to Mercedes.
I was under the impression Honda was now very close to the Mercedes engine at least on race pace? I remember reading an article from last week's race that Honda says they are close to Mercedes on race pace but are behind on qualifying.

basti313
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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e30ernest wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 09:50
selvam_e2002 wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 09:25
If Meclaren build good car with Mercedes engine, then the RB life is very difficult. They will be fighting with Midfiled. Honda need to up their game or disappear from F1.
The most of the performance coming from chassis from Newly not from Honda power unit and engine.
If they put Renault engine they may closer to Mercedes.
I was under the impression Honda was now very close to the Mercedes engine at least on race pace? I remember reading an article from last week's race that Honda says they are close to Mercedes on race pace but are behind on qualifying.
To me it looks a bit like the engine regulations cost everyone a bit, but Renault was the least affected. The Renault engines looked really strong in the race.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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Schuttelberg
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Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 12:02

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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Vasconia wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 08:41
El Scorchio wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:51
Restomaniac wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:34
Agreed.
So should Marko and Horner get as much grief on here for overhyping their team as Wolff does for downplaying Mercedes' chances?
I am personally really fed up with Toto`s "our competitors are super strong I don´t know if we can win blah,blah,blah..."
The bubble bursts on everyone. His time will come. I saw him completely fall apart under pressure in 2018 when Ferrari and Seb were on a roll. It was Hamilton's brilliance that rescued Mercedes in that little time but it won't last forever and there will be a lot of table smashing in the future. He is not a team leader. Not by a long shot.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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El Scorchio
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Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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Schuttelberg wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 12:57
Vasconia wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 08:41
El Scorchio wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:51


So should Marko and Horner get as much grief on here for overhyping their team as Wolff does for downplaying Mercedes' chances?
I am personally really fed up with Toto`s "our competitors are super strong I don´t know if we can win blah,blah,blah..."
The bubble bursts on everyone. His time will come. I saw him completely fall apart under pressure in 2018 when Ferrari and Seb were on a roll. It was Hamilton's brilliance that rescued Mercedes in that little time but it won't last forever and there will be a lot of table smashing in the future. He is not a team leader. Not by a long shot.
Six constructor's titles in a row might disagree with you there.

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etusch
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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El Scorchio wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 13:19
Schuttelberg wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 12:57
Vasconia wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 08:41


I am personally really fed up with Toto`s "our competitors are super strong I don´t know if we can win blah,blah,blah..."
The bubble bursts on everyone. His time will come. I saw him completely fall apart under pressure in 2018 when Ferrari and Seb were on a roll. It was Hamilton's brilliance that rescued Mercedes in that little time but it won't last forever and there will be a lot of table smashing in the future. He is not a team leader. Not by a long shot.
Six constructor's titles in a row might disagree with you there.
with so much difference between cars + pu with token system, yes I aggree. A better team mate would make it different. For example with rosberg ham can not win the season vettel spoiled by hitting back of ham.
Ham is one of the best I don't deny it by the way

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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e30ernest wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 07:02
Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:40
I doubt it, as strategy would mean much more. Having 2, 20 liter tanks in the car allows the teams to vary each load, as I expect it takes at least 90L to finish a race, it would mandate 2 stops.

I think it's a thing that would be great for F1.
The teams will all have a hierarchy of strategies that would all end up roughly the same. Back when refueling was allowed the strategies remained mostly the same across the teams during the race. This is because apart from the time gained/lost from fuel loads and tire selection, you also had to factor in track position. Most teams would not be willing to sacrifice track position even if it means going for a more conservative strategy.

You see this multiple times in past seasons too where refueling was no longer allowed. There were several races where Mercedes admitted that a 2 stop was theoretically faster according to their models but they went for a 1 stop because of track position for example (they had several of these in their post race debriefs in YouTube). I think allowing refueling again would end with this same issue.

Don't get me wrong, I was once in the "allow refuelling" camp before. But after some time I've come to the conclusion that maybe the gains in entertainment here wouldn't be as much as we would hope. At least not enough to justify the extra danger to the pit crew and driver of having to handle highly flammable fuels in a high-pressure, high stakes environment.
That is exactly what I want to see. I get that most teams follow a model for refueling, but reactions to others would be where the real shake up would happen. Did they short fuel for a faster middle stint because their competition long fueled??

I'm telling ya, folks. My Formula series will be off the chain... :lol: :lol:

Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:02
e30ernest wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 07:02
Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:40
I doubt it, as strategy would mean much more. Having 2, 20 liter tanks in the car allows the teams to vary each load, as I expect it takes at least 90L to finish a race, it would mandate 2 stops.

I think it's a thing that would be great for F1.
The teams will all have a hierarchy of strategies that would all end up roughly the same. Back when refueling was allowed the strategies remained mostly the same across the teams during the race. This is because apart from the time gained/lost from fuel loads and tire selection, you also had to factor in track position. Most teams would not be willing to sacrifice track position even if it means going for a more conservative strategy.

You see this multiple times in past seasons too where refueling was no longer allowed. There were several races where Mercedes admitted that a 2 stop was theoretically faster according to their models but they went for a 1 stop because of track position for example (they had several of these in their post race debriefs in YouTube). I think allowing refueling again would end with this same issue.

Don't get me wrong, I was once in the "allow refuelling" camp before. But after some time I've come to the conclusion that maybe the gains in entertainment here wouldn't be as much as we would hope. At least not enough to justify the extra danger to the pit crew and driver of having to handle highly flammable fuels in a high-pressure, high stakes environment.
That is exactly what I want to see. I get that most teams follow a model for refueling, but reactions to others would be where the real shake up would happen. Did they short fuel for a faster middle stint because their competition long fueled??

I'm telling ya, folks. My Formula series will be off the chain... :lol: :lol:
My prediction how refueling will go:

Mercedes will be near perfect, like clockwork, 95% of the time, predicable, boring, fast.
RedBull will gamble a lot, "win" the other 5% and be hailed as the perfect strategists and that refueling works
Ferrari's will run out of fuel on track

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dans79
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Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:02
That is exactly what I want to see. I get that most teams follow a model for refueling, but reactions to others would be where the real shake up would happen. Did they short fuel for a faster middle stint because their competition long fueled??
The only issue is that even back in the day the other teams knew how much fuel their competitors put in during a stop. The refueling rig had a maximum flow rate, so the other teams just watched how long it was connected to the car to determine how much fuel was pumped in. Teams were also able to fairly accurately estimate how much fuel a car started with, based on lap times.Considering the tech now available to them, it will be even easier to determine.
197 104 103 7

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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dans79 wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:19
Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:02
That is exactly what I want to see. I get that most teams follow a model for refueling, but reactions to others would be where the real shake up would happen. Did they short fuel for a faster middle stint because their competition long fueled??
The only issue is that even back in the day the other teams knew how much fuel their competitors put in during a stop. The refueling rig had a maximum flow rate, so the other teams just watched how long it was connected to the car to determine how much fuel was pumped in. Teams were also able to fairly accurately estimate how much fuel a car started with, based on lap times.Considering the tech now available to them, it will be even easier to determine.
They couldnt time the fueling, as the pods would be of variable fullness. A cart with 2 fittings could be filling the pods as the car is on track, and the competition has zero knowledge until more data becomes available (post pit laptime).

Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:37


They couldnt time the fueling, as the pods would be of variable fullness. A cart with 2 fittings could be filling the pods as the car is on track, and the competition has zero knowledge until more data becomes available (post pit laptime).
Where would these pods be fitted? The current fuel tank location is the safest place in the whole car and it's in the very centre of the car. Presumably your pods would go in the sidepods somehow? How to make them crash proof?
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Jolle wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:09
Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:02
e30ernest wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 07:02


The teams will all have a hierarchy of strategies that would all end up roughly the same. Back when refueling was allowed the strategies remained mostly the same across the teams during the race. This is because apart from the time gained/lost from fuel loads and tire selection, you also had to factor in track position. Most teams would not be willing to sacrifice track position even if it means going for a more conservative strategy.

You see this multiple times in past seasons too where refueling was no longer allowed. There were several races where Mercedes admitted that a 2 stop was theoretically faster according to their models but they went for a 1 stop because of track position for example (they had several of these in their post race debriefs in YouTube). I think allowing refueling again would end with this same issue.

Don't get me wrong, I was once in the "allow refuelling" camp before. But after some time I've come to the conclusion that maybe the gains in entertainment here wouldn't be as much as we would hope. At least not enough to justify the extra danger to the pit crew and driver of having to handle highly flammable fuels in a high-pressure, high stakes environment.
That is exactly what I want to see. I get that most teams follow a model for refueling, but reactions to others would be where the real shake up would happen. Did they short fuel for a faster middle stint because their competition long fueled??

I'm telling ya, folks. My Formula series will be off the chain... :lol: :lol:
My prediction how refueling will go:

Mercedes will be near perfect, like clockwork, 95% of the time, predicable, boring, fast.
RedBull will gamble a lot, "win" the other 5% and be hailed as the perfect strategists and that refueling works
Ferrari's will run out of fuel on track
You forget the rest of my Formula tho!!!

Run anything that you want within the formula, as long as you opensource the design before the event. Hopefully with lots of media dissemination following to drive interest and eyeballs to the race. And it would remove 100% of all grey areas. The manufacturers could then move their tech to their road car production as they are not protecting development secrets that cost them billions with no return. I know not many believe in this system, but I must say that, for a living, I disseminate companies into their intrinsic mechanisms, synergize the routes from sourcing to delivery for maximum throughput, and I self balance the pay structures to hyper-align "what is best for the company" and "what is best for the employee". I promise you, it would work, and it would become a Platinum Age.

Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:43
Jolle wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:09
Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 22:02


That is exactly what I want to see. I get that most teams follow a model for refueling, but reactions to others would be where the real shake up would happen. Did they short fuel for a faster middle stint because their competition long fueled??

I'm telling ya, folks. My Formula series will be off the chain... :lol: :lol:
My prediction how refueling will go:

Mercedes will be near perfect, like clockwork, 95% of the time, predicable, boring, fast.
RedBull will gamble a lot, "win" the other 5% and be hailed as the perfect strategists and that refueling works
Ferrari's will run out of fuel on track
You forget the rest of my Formula tho!!!

Run anything that you want within the formula, as long as you opensource the design before the event. Hopefully with lots of media dissemination following to drive interest and eyeballs to the race. And it would remove 100% of all grey areas. The manufacturers could then move their tech to their road car production as they are not protecting development secrets that cost them billions with no return. I know not many believe in this system, but I must say that, for a living, I disseminate companies into their intrinsic mechanisms, synergize the routes from sourcing to delivery for maximum throughput, and I self balance the pay structures to hyper-align "what is best for the company" and "what is best for the employee". I promise you, it would work, and it would become a Platinum Age.
So.... anything goes? so... uhm... movable wings, giant turbo and multi compound tires?

So I can design a car that follows the leader and blast past them on the last corner with 9G?

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