2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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e30ernest
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Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 08:47

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:20
PlatinumZealot wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:10
Jolle wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:05
If we kept the tires the same and brought back refueling, good chance the teams would go for a 60kg tank, starting with 30-35 kg on soft, and then slosh in 60kg at the second pitstop.

Same race, same outcome, almost just as heavy cars (10% lighter at most, the biggest amount on saved fuel is replaced with crash worthy valves and stuff), just the pitstop takes a lot longer and the cars will be slower during 60% of the race (because of the added weight). Just a faster first stint.
Don't worry about pitstop times... That can be sorted.
Having 2, 20 liter pop/swap tanks in the car would guarantee us 2 stops per race. 2 guaranteed stops will lead to drivers abusing their tyres more.

And the pit stops can stay sub-4 seconds.
I think the net result will be the same. The fastest cars will still drive off to the distance (only much faster). You might end up with a more dispersed field.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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I doubt it, as strategy would mean much more. Having 2, 20 liter tanks in the car allows the teams to vary each load, as I expect it takes at least 90L to finish a race, it would mandate 2 stops.

I think it's a thing that would be great for F1.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Schuttelberg wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 02:28
Verstappen looks a little fed up.

Should have signed for Mercedes. :cry:
Mercedes are reluctant to sign Russell. There is no way they're signing Verstappen with Hamilton there. And I am certain, Russell can be as good as Verstappen if given the opportunity.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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Zynerji
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Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Schuttelberg wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:45
Schuttelberg wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 02:28
Verstappen looks a little fed up.

Should have signed for Mercedes. :cry:
Mercedes are reluctant to sign Russell. There is no way they're signing Verstappen with Hamilton there. And I am certain, Russell can be as good as Verstappen if given the opportunity.
There are some young Gems in the field, for sure.

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Schuttelberg
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Joined: 27 Jul 2015, 12:02

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:51
Schuttelberg wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:45
Schuttelberg wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 02:28
Verstappen looks a little fed up.

Should have signed for Mercedes. :cry:
Mercedes are reluctant to sign Russell. There is no way they're signing Verstappen with Hamilton there. And I am certain, Russell can be as good as Verstappen if given the opportunity.
There are some young Gems in the field, for sure.
In my 25 years of watching, I have not witnessed such a surge of talent. The likes of Norris, Russell, Ocon, Sainz, Verstappen, Leclerc, Albon.. it's unbelievable. I am practically certain that Giovinazzi, Gasly, Kvyat and Stroll would be more popular as rookies or young talent in a previous generation. It just goes to show that amidst all the doom and gloom and cursing of 'pay drivers' we are now entering an era where mostly talent will come through driver academies only. I personally think it's absolutely fantastic and there's a fantastic thing right now that the two most successful champions active in the sport are also products of YDP's.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:20
PlatinumZealot wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:10
Jolle wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:05
If we kept the tires the same and brought back refueling, good chance the teams would go for a 60kg tank, starting with 30-35 kg on soft, and then slosh in 60kg at the second pitstop.

Same race, same outcome, almost just as heavy cars (10% lighter at most, the biggest amount on saved fuel is replaced with crash worthy valves and stuff), just the pitstop takes a lot longer and the cars will be slower during 60% of the race (because of the added weight). Just a faster first stint.
Don't worry about pitstop times... That can be sorted.
Having 2, 20 liter pop/swap tanks in the car would guarantee us 2 stops per race. 2 guaranteed stops will lead to drivers abusing their tyres more.

And the pit stops can stay sub-4 seconds.

Hah. Yes. That's my idea i fleshed out in an earlier thread (fuel pod). I had started designing those in CAD in a proposal to FIA. Wheel base will increase even more unfortunately.

Also element of sruprise... No one knows how much fuel you added... Because the swap times are the same. A clever camera might try to gauge how much effort the mechanics lifted with.
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Zynerji
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Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 03:04
Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:20
PlatinumZealot wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:10


Don't worry about pitstop times... That can be sorted.
Having 2, 20 liter pop/swap tanks in the car would guarantee us 2 stops per race. 2 guaranteed stops will lead to drivers abusing their tyres more.

And the pit stops can stay sub-4 seconds.

Hah. Yes. That's my idea i fleshed out in an earlier thread (fuel pod). I had started designing those in CAD in a proposal to FIA. Wheel base will increase even more unfortunately.

Also element of sruprise... No one knows how much fuel you added... Because the swap times are the same. A clever camera might try to gauge how much effort the mechanics lifted with.
Isnt a 20L tank less than 1 cubic foot? I wouldn't expect that to be a chassis length increase.

I brought this idea up a few years ago, but for CNG fuel, but it still works with gasoline.

ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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El Scorchio wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 01:43
Gothrek wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 01:21
Reviewed the Leclerc - Vettel crash again, the more I see it, the less I understand Leclerc. Was it pure arrogance that he would think Vettel would dissappear for him? Just don’t get it. Such a rookie mistake.
It was just a really stupid move. He doesn't even have anything to prove to Vettel, or to prove by overtaking him. He's already 'won' that battle between the two drivers. He's cost his team dear and compounded an already really bad situation for them. After last week he should know the value of just keeping the car on the track until the end of the race, and who knows what might happen.

However, as stupid as the mistake was, he was big enough to publicly take the blame for it and apologise to his team and team mate. Respect to him for doing that.
It wasn't as stupid as it was presumptuous, watch the onboard from LEC, VET was not in line, VET was in between the 2 lanes. Everyone was going 2 by 2 thru the turn one in front of the other, VET straddled the 2 lanes(as he has a right to do). Because of VET's offset to the left that gave LEC a clear space/gap and view of the back of RUS car. LEC, possibly instinctively moved to get into that gap at the same time VER moved to take the apex.

We've seem much worse moves from other more experienced drivers, specifically VET.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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The current fuel tank is really tucked into the chassis and irregularly shaped. The new pod has to be able to slide in and out, and shaped to be handled easily. So it will take up space at the back of the chassis.
The connections are the other engineering challenge.. Have to prevent sloshing in the pod too. So some interesting challenges.

My design is 30 liters each to allow more variable strategies...

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ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:20
PlatinumZealot wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:10
Jolle wrote:
13 Jul 2020, 19:05
If we kept the tires the same and brought back refueling, good chance the teams would go for a 60kg tank, starting with 30-35 kg on soft, and then slosh in 60kg at the second pitstop.

Same race, same outcome, almost just as heavy cars (10% lighter at most, the biggest amount on saved fuel is replaced with crash worthy valves and stuff), just the pitstop takes a lot longer and the cars will be slower during 60% of the race (because of the added weight). Just a faster first stint.
Don't worry about pitstop times... That can be sorted.
Having 2, 20 liter pop/swap tanks in the car would guarantee us 2 stops per race. 2 guaranteed stops will lead to drivers abusing their tyres more.

And the pit stops can stay sub-4 seconds.
It doesn't matter if the fuel tanks hold a thimbles worth of fuel, the tires can not be pushed hard, they will always overheat and lose most grip. Any pushing of the tires for more than 2 laps consecutively and they drop off precipitously. It is the nature of the tires that is the problem, not the nature of the cars.

ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:40
I doubt it, as strategy would mean much more. Having 2, 20 liter tanks in the car allows the teams to vary each load, as I expect it takes at least 90L to finish a race, it would mandate 2 stops.

I think it's a thing that would be great for F1.
90kg(or more), not 90L
90kg = approx 117L
110kg(current race fuel allotment)=143L

90L is what the old v10s use to use in 1 race stint

You are making poor assumptions based off bad numbers.

Merc are winning races, at a faster pace(check Hungary last year) than they were in the v10 era(or ever) while using about half as much fuel. The fuel tanks are not the problem, and refueling is not a solution for anything.

Refueling brought so many huge problems, fires(cars, drivers and crew), closed pits, a fixed race, very little on track action, and they still fuel saved and still lift and coasted back then.

There is no situation where refueling was good for F1.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on 14 Jul 2020, 04:13, edited 2 times in total.

e30ernest
27
Joined: 29 Feb 2012, 08:47

Re: 2020 Styrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 10-12 July

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Zynerji wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 02:40
I doubt it, as strategy would mean much more. Having 2, 20 liter tanks in the car allows the teams to vary each load, as I expect it takes at least 90L to finish a race, it would mandate 2 stops.

I think it's a thing that would be great for F1.
The teams will all have a hierarchy of strategies that would all end up roughly the same. Back when refueling was allowed the strategies remained mostly the same across the teams during the race. This is because apart from the time gained/lost from fuel loads and tire selection, you also had to factor in track position. Most teams would not be willing to sacrifice track position even if it means going for a more conservative strategy.

You see this multiple times in past seasons too where refueling was no longer allowed. There were several races where Mercedes admitted that a 2 stop was theoretically faster according to their models but they went for a 1 stop because of track position for example (they had several of these in their post race debriefs in YouTube). I think allowing refueling again would end with this same issue.

Don't get me wrong, I was once in the "allow refuelling" camp before. But after some time I've come to the conclusion that maybe the gains in entertainment here wouldn't be as much as we would hope. At least not enough to justify the extra danger to the pit crew and driver of having to handle highly flammable fuels in a high-pressure, high stakes environment.

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Vasconia
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Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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Wouter wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 13:04
Vasconia wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:33
Restomaniac wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:15
True. Albon sounds especially cheesed off.
So much time proclaming that they were ready to beat Mercedes and I can´t see the slighlest sign of this.
Max said yesterday that major steps had been taken at RBR. You can also see that when you look at Ferrari.
However ... he also said that Mercedes had taken even bigger steps and that is clearly visible.
I was a comparison to last year`s performance and Ferrari has lost almost a second, while RB almost has not improved and Mercedes has improved around two tenths of a second If I am not wrong. So I can only see excuses from RB, sadly.

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Vasconia
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Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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El Scorchio wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:51
Restomaniac wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:34
Vasconia wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:33


So much time proclaming that they were ready to beat Mercedes and I can´t see the slighlest sign of this.
Agreed.
So should Marko and Horner get as much grief on here for overhyping their team as Wolff does for downplaying Mercedes' chances?
I am personally really fed up with Toto`s "our competitors are super strong I don´t know if we can win blah,blah,blah..."

McMika98
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Joined: 18 Feb 2017, 22:40

Re: 2020 Grosser Preis der Steiermark - Spielberg, 10 - 12 July

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Vasconia wrote:
14 Jul 2020, 08:40
Wouter wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 13:04
Vasconia wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 12:33


So much time proclaming that they were ready to beat Mercedes and I can´t see the slighlest sign of this.
Max said yesterday that major steps had been taken at RBR. You can also see that when you look at Ferrari.
However ... he also said that Mercedes had taken even bigger steps and that is clearly visible.
I was a comparison to last year`s performance and Ferrari has lost almost a second, while RB almost has not improved and Mercedes has improved around two tenths of a second If I am not wrong. So I can only see excuses from RB, sadly.
Worse still most midfield teams made a jump and lapping similar to Max pace last year.

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