Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I barely read the Team principal press conference these days. Same old same old. No proper question ever truly gets answered, Just beat around the bush, beat around the bush. Round and round the mulberry bush...
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

hurril
hurril
54
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Where's the singing / whining sound of the Ferrari PU gone? Just a simple move of a microphone or what's going on here? The sound is completely different.

User avatar
Deadpool
1
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:47 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Killed by the FIA...

f1316
f1316
70
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

What I don’t understand is, if Ferrari knew these changes would affect their engine performance so much, why they of all people would support changes to engine development rules? I say of all people because they have veto power and, although I’m sure they don’t want to use it willy nilly (and especially in cases where it’s to control costs during covid-19), I still find it odd that they’d willingly succumb to rule changes that they know could negatively affect them for many years to come.

Two possibilities spring to mind:

1. They didn’t realise at the point that these regs were being agreed that they’d be so badly affected. Perhaps this is the more likely.

2. One other thing that’s been circulating in my mind is whether some element of their current lack of performance is to do with not being able to run their power units to the max without the additional oil/lubricants they may have previously been using.

The hypothesis to this point has been that - if you take away whatever ‘trick(s)’ they were previously using, the underlying engine is not very good and all development for a while has gone towards these ‘tricks - it seems like the only thing that would explain just how drastically the new TDs have affected their power (scarbs suggested the 0.7s they say they’re losing on power is ~70hp).

However, 70hp down seems A LOT and - although there are few other ways to explain the loss in power year on year - it just seems unfathomable that Ferrari could have thrown all their eggs in a basket that they knew was such a grey area (at best). So the oil burning effect having a knock on to being able to reliably run their engines at Max power seems another plausible explanation and, if that’s so, I wonder if they think they can make changes to their engine this year for reliability reasons?

bosyber
bosyber
43
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:41 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

f1316 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:35 pm
What I don’t understand is, if Ferrari knew these changes would affect their engine performance so much, why they of all people would support changes to engine development rules? I say of all people because they have veto power and, although I’m sure they don’t want to use it willy nilly (and especially in cases where it’s to control costs during covid-19), I still find it odd that they’d willingly succumb to rule changes that they know could negatively affect them for many years to come.

Two possibilities spring to mind:

1. They didn’t realise at the point that these regs were being agreed that they’d be so badly affected. Perhaps this is the more likely.

2. One other thing that’s been circulating in my mind is whether some element of their current lack of performance is to do with not being able to run their power units to the max without the additional oil/lubricants they may have previously been using.

The hypothesis to this point has been that - if you take away whatever ‘trick(s)’ they were previously using, the underlying engine is not very good and all development for a while has gone towards these ‘tricks - it seems like the only thing that would explain just how drastically the new TDs have affected their power (scarbs suggested the 0.7s they say they’re losing on power is ~70hp).

However, 70hp down seems A LOT and - although there are few other ways to explain the loss in power year on year - it just seems unfathomable that Ferrari could have thrown all their eggs in a basket that they knew was such a grey area (at best). So the oil burning effect having a knock on to being able to reliably run their engines at Max power seems another plausible explanation and, if that’s so, I wonder if they think they can make changes to their engine this year for reliability reasons?
70hp seems like way too much, but the bit about their cooling being affected does match what Mark Hughes wrote for the-race earlier this week - apparently they used the extra fuel to make the mix less lean, so that it has a greater heat capacity, ie. needed less cooling, and that addressing that extra cooling made them create too draggy radiator setup in the sidepods - if so, does explain some of it. Guess they might have a similar weakness for hot, high/tropical places as Mercedes used to have then.

Also, looking at Leclerc in FP3, and perhaps Vettel FP2, t's also draggier aero that does give downforce but too much drag for the amount of power they ended up being able to use.

f1316
f1316
70
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

bosyber wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:12 pm
f1316 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:35 pm
What I don’t understand is, if Ferrari knew these changes would affect their engine performance so much, why they of all people would support changes to engine development rules? I say of all people because they have veto power and, although I’m sure they don’t want to use it willy nilly (and especially in cases where it’s to control costs during covid-19), I still find it odd that they’d willingly succumb to rule changes that they know could negatively affect them for many years to come.

Two possibilities spring to mind:

1. They didn’t realise at the point that these regs were being agreed that they’d be so badly affected. Perhaps this is the more likely.

2. One other thing that’s been circulating in my mind is whether some element of their current lack of performance is to do with not being able to run their power units to the max without the additional oil/lubricants they may have previously been using.

The hypothesis to this point has been that - if you take away whatever ‘trick(s)’ they were previously using, the underlying engine is not very good and all development for a while has gone towards these ‘tricks - it seems like the only thing that would explain just how drastically the new TDs have affected their power (scarbs suggested the 0.7s they say they’re losing on power is ~70hp).

However, 70hp down seems A LOT and - although there are few other ways to explain the loss in power year on year - it just seems unfathomable that Ferrari could have thrown all their eggs in a basket that they knew was such a grey area (at best). So the oil burning effect having a knock on to being able to reliably run their engines at Max power seems another plausible explanation and, if that’s so, I wonder if they think they can make changes to their engine this year for reliability reasons?
70hp seems like way too much, but the bit about their cooling being affected does match what Mark Hughes wrote for the-race earlier this week - apparently they used the extra fuel to make the mix less lean, so that it has a greater heat capacity, ie. needed less cooling, and that addressing that extra cooling made them create too draggy radiator setup in the sidepods - if so, does explain some of it. Guess they might have a similar weakness for hot, high/tropical places as Mercedes used to have then.

Also, looking at Leclerc in FP3, and perhaps Vettel FP2, t's also draggier aero that does give downforce but too much drag for the amount of power they ended up being able to use.
Interesting - do you mind posting the link to the article you’re referring to? I was searching but couldn’t find anything.

bosyber
bosyber
43
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:41 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

f1316 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:41 pm
bosyber wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:12 pm
f1316 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:35 pm
[snip] ...

2. One other thing that’s been circulating in my mind is whether some element of their current lack of performance is to do with not being able to run their power units to the max without the additional oil/lubricants they may have previously been using.

The hypothesis to this point has been that - if you take away whatever ‘trick(s)’ they were previously using, the underlying engine is not very good and all development for a while has gone towards these ‘tricks - it seems like the only thing that would explain just how drastically the new TDs have affected their power (scarbs suggested the 0.7s they say they’re losing on power is ~70hp).

...
[snip]
70hp seems like way too much, but the bit about their cooling being affected does match what Mark Hughes wrote for the-race earlier this week - apparently they used the extra fuel to make the mix less lean, so that it has a greater heat capacity, ie. needed less cooling, and that addressing that extra cooling made them create too draggy radiator setup in the sidepods - if so, does explain some of it. Guess they might have a similar weakness for hot, high/tropical places as Mercedes used to have then.

Also, looking at Leclerc in FP3, and perhaps Vettel FP2, t's also draggier aero that does give downforce but too much drag for the amount of power they ended up being able to use.
Interesting - do you mind posting the link to the article you’re referring to? I was searching but couldn’t find anything.
Sure, didn't have time to look for it before, it's this one:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-racing-to-change-engine-for-21-around-fia-directives/
Running the engines with a leaner fuel mixture is part of a mix of strategies used to create a qualifying mode. This creates extra heat and it is believed that Ferrari’s previous interpretation of the fuel flow limit made it possible to use enough extra fuel to absorb much of this extra heat.
Ferrari defiant amid new push for engine settlement release

A greater fuel flow brings not just power gains, but the extra heat-absorbing properties also allow a lower cooling capacity, with implications of radiator capacity and the aerodynamic impact of cooling inlets and outlets for them.

Without the facility to increase the fuel flow, even for a short period, that advantage has disappeared.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

bosyber wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:12 pm

70hp seems like way too much, but the bit about their cooling being affected does match what Mark Hughes wrote for the-race earlier this week - apparently they used the extra fuel to make the mix less lean, so that it has a greater heat capacity, ie. needed less cooling, and that addressing that extra cooling made them create too draggy radiator setup in the sidepods - if so, does explain some of it. Guess they might have a similar weakness for hot, high/tropical places as Mercedes used to have then.

Also, looking at Leclerc in FP3, and perhaps Vettel FP2, t's also draggier aero that does give downforce but too much drag for the amount of power they ended up being able to use.
Mark Hughes is completely wrong.
Maximum combustion temperature occurs at lambda 1. Any leaner or richer would decrease the temperature.
Since these engines are already running very lean, adding more fuel will bring the mix closer to lambda 1, hence hotter.
That is because the extra fuel will fully combust, therefore releasing more heat.

N/A engines were running slightly rich so any extra fuel would not combust (release heat) but instead just provide additional heat capacity which is why back then more fuel resulted in lower temperatures. This is definitely not the case with current turbo engines.

bosyber
bosyber
43
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:41 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Yes, I was a bit confused at exact the explanation myself, but, not a fuel or engine guy at all, which is why this is a good forum to have it discussed, thanks.

Still, he must have it from some source, so I perhaps the precise reason why using more fuel allowed them to get a more efficient cooling set up is not right, but that base fact does match well with earlier reports of them having the cooling wrong due to relatively late changes to beef it up and ending up with sidepods that are blocked, in turn increasing drag.

V12-POWER
V12-POWER
-5
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 4:48 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

This whole illegal engine by Ferrari story seems so fabricated it’s absurd

The real story is probably much darker and I’m willing to bet it has no relationship with the engine being illegal at all. Can’t say they’re saints at Ferrari but this time it seems they’re being killed

Some stuff just doesn’t make any sense...we might be looking at a big a$$ scandal waiting to happen here with the FIA if someone ever opens their mouth

hurril
hurril
54
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

V12-POWER wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:02 pm
This whole illegal engine by Ferrari story seems so fabricated it’s absurd

The real story is probably much darker and I’m willing to bet it has no relationship with the engine being illegal at all. Can’t say they’re saints at Ferrari but this time it seems they’re being killed

Some stuff just doesn’t make any sense...we might be looking at a big a$$ scandal waiting to happen here with the FIA if someone ever opens their mouth
But evidence so far is that something happened and their PU:s seem to be down on power compared to last year. So make of the conspiracy surrounding this what you will, Ockham says something else.

V12-POWER
V12-POWER
-5
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 4:48 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

hurril wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:04 pm
V12-POWER wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:02 pm
This whole illegal engine by Ferrari story seems so fabricated it’s absurd

The real story is probably much darker and I’m willing to bet it has no relationship with the engine being illegal at all. Can’t say they’re saints at Ferrari but this time it seems they’re being killed

Some stuff just doesn’t make any sense...we might be looking at a big a$$ scandal waiting to happen here with the FIA if someone ever opens their mouth
But evidence so far is that something happened and their PU:s seem to be down on power compared to last year. So make of the conspiracy surrounding this what you will, Ockham says something else.
yea I know, it’s also not that they’re just “down on power” they’re a goddamn semi truck

hurril
hurril
54
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

V12-POWER wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:59 pm
hurril wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:04 pm
V12-POWER wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:02 pm
This whole illegal engine by Ferrari story seems so fabricated it’s absurd

The real story is probably much darker and I’m willing to bet it has no relationship with the engine being illegal at all. Can’t say they’re saints at Ferrari but this time it seems they’re being killed

Some stuff just doesn’t make any sense...we might be looking at a big a$$ scandal waiting to happen here with the FIA if someone ever opens their mouth
But evidence so far is that something happened and their PU:s seem to be down on power compared to last year. So make of the conspiracy surrounding this what you will, Ockham says something else.
yea I know, it’s also not that they’re just “down on power” they’re a goddamn semi truck
But what's the real story or what's fabricated?

foofykid
foofykid
0
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:29 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

The engine is the worst in the field and its going to be like this the whole season and some. Engine freeze this year which will impact the car for years to come. Look at all the other Ferrari engine teams they are close to dead last. Going to be a very bad YEARS to come. This season is a wash i almost cant even watch anymore. Some say about 50hp down to others i say more and they lost an "over taken" mode.

User avatar
Blackout
1310
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

0.7s equates 56 - 58hp, not 70, AFAIK.