2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

[dans79]

It's this sort of thing that has pushed away so much of F1's fan following.

I don't agree with this at all, I would say it's the ever-increasing paywall that's driving people away.

[Hoffman900]

There is copying and copying... All teams know that Mercedes handled the data to Racing Point, they just can not prove it.

Just think about this - Even Mercedes itself has issues to develop a thin nose. It took them a lot of effort and multiple crash testing to develop the tiniest nose. None of the other team was able to replicate it to the same level (because it is about the internal structures of the honeycomb aluminium and about the layers of different carbon fibre types and orientations) and now Racing Point just "look" at the pictures and boom did it one the first try... Even if they 3D scanned the whole Mercedes they needed a lot of "help" or "insider info" to "replicate" it...

Usually, when teams trying new stuff there is always some level of issues (overheating, vibrations, lack of stiffness, ...), but not in Racing Point, they "changed" the whole concept and did it on the firts try - must have the most experienced engineers in F1...

"All teams know.. but they cannot prove it". So it's just suspicion at this point. I'm not thrilled about it, but if one makes declarative statements, they need to back it up with evidence. So far, none has surfaced. Credit to Renault for leading the charge on that.


As for copying, then if they are found legal, then good on them. They exploited a loophole and got a competitive advantage. That's racing in a nutshell. The fall out would be teams requiring more parts to be designed in-house, but there is a balancing act as doing so raises the entry cost for new teams and puts teams like Williams and Haas on even more of a back foot.

Half the discussion on here is speculative. "This person could have won", "someone would have dnf'ed anyway", etc. The great part about racing is the results are what they are and anything is capable of happening up until the finish line. Speculation is just that. It's fun, it's a sport onto itself, but it doesn't change what was.

Very sensible statements... The issue with the perceived “hate” over RP is because they don’t have the fan base of other teams and of course it hurts some of their fans to see a midfield team with a fraction of the resources of their own teams suddenly up there towards the front of the grid... Every team is looking for every loophole in order to get a competitive advantage, they found the best one and were lucky that the car they copied was so far ahead the rest of the competition, that suddenly they are locking the second row for a race.

I can’t remember this amount of hate when Haas showed up with what seemingly was a Ferrari copy also, same business model as RP... Out of nowhere an almost new team in Formula 1 was P5/P6 on the opening race in Australia, continuously fighting in Q3 and on many weekends “best of the rest”... But, all the ones in the top 3 were gaining so much over previous year that it didn’t made as many headlines... If Ferrari and Red Bull would have gotten it right and achieved an increase in performance similar to the one Mercedes did with the W11 we would be hearing half the amount of crying.


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There is the old trope in racing, "everyone in front of me must be cheating because I'm cheating!".

It's easier to control the narrative by declaring the other car the cheater. It's easier to explain to sponsors, driver's can use the excuse, etc. In my experience, you almost have to beg people to protest you, they rather just complain and convince everyone around them that they are losing because you are cheating. So credit to Renault for actually putting the paperwork down. If they are found legal, within the current rules, then everyone else just looks like they dropped the ball in the offseason and that's harder to explain to sponsors.

As for domination, it's always existed. If we look back to what many people declare the hayday, you had the two best drivers on the grid in the best car (Senna / Prost), so of course those two produced excitement as they were on equal footing. Some of Senna's best highlights were in a 3rd or even 4th place car holding the faster (Williams) car at bay. We are robbed of Verstappen (not comparing him to Senna) doing that to Bottas due to the DRS system. Think of the battle of Verstappen vs Bottas last week... that could have been several laps long, instead we got two corners. Think of Senna at Monza in 1992 with Mansell and Patrese. Or the first 5 laps at Silverstone in 1993 vs Prost. That could never happen today with the current rules.

Of course the DRS was a response to cars not being able to run in the wake, so I get why it exists. I also think it robs us of traditional race tactics. Unfortunately the FIA is in a tough spot, as there really is no easy fix without just making it a European version of Indy Car.

[Big Tea]

That is not F1. F1 has almost always had a dominant team. There was few years as exception. With regards to the last 4-5 years, other teams have to do a better job than cheating (Ferrari) or designing cars only good at single type of circuits (hand stand Redbull). If 2 year old Merc (RP) can beat the new Ferrari and Redbull that is not Merc's fault.

F1 is demonstration of bleeding edge of tech + strategy + great driving + some luck.

Great driving is part of F1, not the whole.

It is a "team" "motor" "sport".

F1 might always have had a dominant team, but it almost never ended by other teams doing better, so plesse stop with that statement. Williams in 90, new regs. Ferrari in 00, new regs, red bull 10, new regs. Mercedes would never have caught up with RB if the V8 were still arround, and Vettel would be 10 WDC. No one would have liked that. I will not take anything from Hamilton, he is awsome, I will rater have him breaking all the records than Vettel, but I even sense he would like to compete on a more level playing field.

FIA have tried a lot, but I do not even think budget caps or similar will change much, MB are so fare ahead that they can sleep one year and still win. I love the things they invent (in the interest of the sports innovative history) DAS, FRIC, burning oil. I even like Ferrari for trying so hard to be competitive, OK they did not stay on the right side of the rules, but that does not mean that the fuel flow trick was not inventive and impressive. But DAS could just as easily have been unlegal. Now it isn’t, but as long as we have the tires we have now and more importantly the PU system, no one but MB will be WCC. So 2022 is the best chance in many years. I just think they should look equally at regulating mechanical suspention parts as aero. I think many underestimate how goon MB are in that area. I drive KZ2 gokarts myself, and getting on the throttle early in corners or even on kerbs wins you a lot of laptime.

So, the fact that those other teams that dominated during “X Era” didn’t have the capability to continue that domination afterwards is Mercedes problem? Mercedes is where it’s at because unlike others, they have managed to maintain the status of Top Team regardless of changes in regulations... Everyone has had a chance to catch them and they simply can’t do it... You say that is because of the PU remaining constant? That’s the best thing that can happen to other teams since eventually they all converge and last season, even the likes of Renault and Honda were there or thereabouts with Mercedes in terms of power with Ferrari (although with suspected tactics) was superior... Ferrari had the chance of finally breaking the streak of Mercedes in 2019 (and in my view also in 2018) and didn’t took advantage of it due to their own mistakes.

You talk about 0.010 gaps in Formula 1? Please tell me when that was a reality? I still remember Prost lapping not once, but twice every single other car in the field up to P6 and that was 3 decades ago... There have always been strong / top teams, midfield teams and backmarkers and that won’t change anytime soon (although, with as prohibitive in terms of innovation as the 2022 rules apparently are, this might help).


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Ironic you should post that this week. The best comparison to Merc now is Mclaren. Fia (well, one of them) found a way to unfairly knock the bottom out of Mclaren, I just hope it does not happen to Merc.

[LM10]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

[nzjrs]

Pole by a large margin as predicted. What I didnt expect was for RedBull to be so far back!

Isn't picking Mercedes to win in the Mercedes Era about as challenging as supporting Manchester United in the Ferguson Era?

[nzjrs]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

I noticed it wasn't on every party mode lap, morso it was on the lap before, or the first prep lap out of the garage.

[falonso81]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

Nobody seems to be giving a f@ck about it. Everybody noticed the Ferraris smoking 2 years ago and we all know how that went. I guess even if Mercedes is 5 seconds ahead of everyone, nobody will raise an eyebrow because it will be ingenious and innovative.

[Phil]

Sport is sport. Winning is all part of being the “best”. I dont believe in artificial handicaps to “spice up the races”. We’ve gone through these periods when Schumacher dominated, then Vettel, now Hamilton. I dont see a problem.

I wonder if you would have shared that notion if the shoe was on the other foot. I am not in on artificially handicapping the Mercedes team by having reverse grids and all that sort of nonsense. I think that's bullish!t! I want someone to do a better job and beat them.

But this comparison to the "Schumacher days" and the "Vettel days" does not float. Schumacher had two, at best three such years and Vettel two. The Mercedes juggernaut has been on for seven years and it will be eight next year. As a fan, there's nothing to watch even if Schumacher or Vettel or Hamilton or anyone is endlessly winning.

At this present moment, I have no problem with 2020 but its horrendously idiotic to call 2021 and 2020 separate championships. The cars are frozen. We will basically see Hamilton vs Bottas for two years for the championship and I don't think as a fan of the sport first, I'm interested in seeing that crap. It's this sort of thing that has pushed away so much of F1's fan following.

Being a Hamilton fan, i didnt particularly “enjoy” 2011 and 2013. Even if i was rooting for Webber at the time though, i was very pleased when Vettel got his 3rd title in 2012 after an incredibly shocking clash on lap 1 and i certainly enjoyed racing as much as i do now.

You see, there’s more to a race than the bloke who finishes first. There are countless intra battles that i find fascinating. I love watching Norris and i appreciate his performance regardless if he wins or not. Same applies to Russels qf performance.

I regularly go to the track myself and i’m far from the quickest of my group of friends (far too many that drive Super7s that are in a league of their own), yet that doesnt stop me from engaging in my own “battle” with the stopwatch or to get to perfection in my car. I see watching F1 as no different.

It’d be a pity to be solely focused on the one guy who wins any race. After all there are 19 other drivers part of that same race too. Or 14 non Mercedes cars if you prefer to look at it that way.

Hamilton will probably win tomorrow’s race, but i am absolutely stoked to see how Leclerc vs Vettel will turn out or how Norris will do. Or Ocon. And of course Max.

I guess people differ. When Hamilton was driving the 2009 McLaren, i was still rooting for hin to get the best from his car. I loved F1 every bit then as much as i do now.

[PlatinumZealot]

Pole by a large margin as predicted. What I didnt expect was for RedBull to be so far back!

Isn't picking Mercedes to win in the Mercedes Era about as challenging as supporting Manchester United in the Ferguson Era?

Not even a big football fan and I hated on them hard back then!

[914hald]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

I was also wondering alot about this.

Isn't the new rules about oil burning VERY strict ?
Both RP and Merc was smoking on throttle at pre season test also.

[cooken]

Merc have been consistently letting out a puff of smoke coming out of the garage. I haven't noticed it as much this year out of the garage, so it could be that whatever was going on with that is now just happening a little later.

[LM10]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

Nobody seems to be giving a f@ck about it. Everybody noticed the Ferraris smoking 2 years ago and we all know how that went. I guess even if Mercedes is 5 seconds ahead of everyone, nobody will raise an eyebrow because it will be ingenious and innovative.

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

[holeindalip]

You have my sympathy. It’s not easy.

Thanks, lol... It does suck, but there is no way I can enjoy a race after it has ended, even when I may stay away from the net/media to not spoil the result... Especially hard after too much bourbon the night before


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I love the 6am races, Means my kids are still sleeping, and after the race finishes, I have my whole day to do anything I want.

Yup, I love the early wake ups on the weekends, watch the qualy/race and have the rest of the day for family and whatever chores need done....

[dans79]

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Honestly, I think that's the new rear suspension that allows for greater aerodynamic freedom and development.

[Schuttelberg]

Sport is sport. Winning is all part of being the “best”. I dont believe in artificial handicaps to “spice up the races”. We’ve gone through these periods when Schumacher dominated, then Vettel, now Hamilton. I dont see a problem.

I wonder if you would have shared that notion if the shoe was on the other foot. I am not in on artificially handicapping the Mercedes team by having reverse grids and all that sort of nonsense. I think that's bullish!t! I want someone to do a better job and beat them.

But this comparison to the "Schumacher days" and the "Vettel days" does not float. Schumacher had two, at best three such years and Vettel two. The Mercedes juggernaut has been on for seven years and it will be eight next year. As a fan, there's nothing to watch even if Schumacher or Vettel or Hamilton or anyone is endlessly winning.

At this present moment, I have no problem with 2020 but its horrendously idiotic to call 2021 and 2020 separate championships. The cars are frozen. We will basically see Hamilton vs Bottas for two years for the championship and I don't think as a fan of the sport first, I'm interested in seeing that crap. It's this sort of thing that has pushed away so much of F1's fan following.

Being a Hamilton fan, i didnt particularly “enjoy” 2011 and 2013. Even if i was rooting for Webber at the time though, i was very pleased when Vettel got his 3rd title in 2012 after an incredibly shocking clash on lap 1 and i certainly enjoyed racing as much as i do now.

You see, there’s more to a race than the bloke who finishes first. There are countless intra battles that i find fascinating. I love watching Norris and i appreciate his performance regardless if he wins or not. Same applies to Russels qf performance.

I regularly go to the track myself and i’m far from the quickest of my group of friends (far too many that drive Super7s that are in a league of their own), yet that doesnt stop me from engaging in my own “battle” with the stopwatch or to get to perfection in my car. I see watching F1 as no different.

It’d be a pity to be solely focused on the one guy who wins any race. After all there are 19 other drivers part of that same race too. Or 14 non Mercedes cars if you prefer to look at it that way.

Hamilton will probably win tomorrow’s race, but i am absolutely stoked to see how Leclerc vs Vettel will turn out or how Norris will do. Or Ocon. And of course Max.

I guess people differ. When Hamilton was driving the 2009 McLaren, i was still rooting for hin to get the best from his car. I loved F1 every bit then as much as i do now.

I mean you are contradicting yourself. Are you and I petrolheads? Yes.

Am I going to watch in 2020 and 2021 knowing that car 44 will be WDC? Yes.

Were you agitated in 2011 and 2013 like I am now? Yes.

Ultimately, you're saying what I am saying and vice versa. I'm a Vettel fan but a very different Schumacher fan. Back in the day, I was immature and completely consumed with my sheer love for Michael. My obsession was such that I could see people get injured for him to win. That changed in 1999 when he got injured and perhaps, I understood not just F1 but life more? If that makes sense? I mean I was 12. Then life goes on, you lose family members and pets and now I'm 33 and obviously I don't have tunnel vision. I mean, James Allison losing his wife troubled me for a day and a half.

For me, the sport is first, followed by teams and then drivers. I don't think DAS should be invalidated. I don't think this domination of 2020 should be some sort of bitter feeling. It is what it is, as boring as hell as it is. My agitation is to do with 2021 and the same sh!t happening for another 365 days. If for you, 2 years of domination with a gap year was hard to put up with then we will have endured 8 without seeing a driver not driving a Mercedes fighting for the championship in the last race. 8 years!! To add to that the relentless trolling by their boss every fortnight.

I don't think it's at all fair that we have a repeat championship with added accolades. It's not like anyone that watches F1 isn't totally in love with any fight on track for any position. But, sport or even a board game at home is played to win and not just participate. If you tell me that you and I are to play monopoly and I get to keep my cities and hotels from the previous game that I won, it won't please you. Simple as that.