2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

[El Scorchio]

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Significant power advantage? They're roughly 20 hp ahead of the Honda this year. Even the Renault PU isn't far away. Ferrari gave the folks at Brixworth a false target to chase, and Mercedes almost completely re-designed their PU for '20.

This is the new Toto Wolf's fable.
Last year he was saying that since the engine rules were in their 5th year, all the teams had converged and was not possible to better as Ferrari did (even if everybody known that Mercedes was facing temperature issues and so had to run the engine partially detuned).
Now this year he says that they found performance just by searching them (as if F1 teams do not search for the best performances every year). But if he is true this year, then it was not true that the engines had reached pretty the maximum the year before and had converged.

They had probably reached what they thought were the limits. The point of R&D is that you are constantly discovering new limits and expanding on what you previously thought was possible. The Ferrari engine probably spurred them on harder than they would have to try and find new ways to improve.

The best teams just remain one step ahead of the competition- just like the Ferrari teams of Brawn and Todt, or the McLaren and Honda (first time round) partnership.

[mkay]

Already any ideas what that mysterious puff of smoke coming out of Mercedes powered cars might be? Significant power advantage in party mode combined with smoke. That was enough to be highly suspicious not so long ago. I would be surprised if none of the teams would do anything to clear that up.

Nobody seems to be giving a f@ck about it. Everybody noticed the Ferraris smoking 2 years ago and we all know how that went. I guess even if Mercedes is 5 seconds ahead of everyone, nobody will raise an eyebrow because it will be ingenious and innovative.

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Fun fact - RB actually had marginally better top speed than Mercedes yesterday. Difference is really in the chassis/aero. RB wasn't that great in high speed corners in Austria and that continued in Hungary, but on top of that they've lost their edge in low-speed corners due to their weird balance issues.

[Juzh]

Nobody seems to be giving a f@ck about it. Everybody noticed the Ferraris smoking 2 years ago and we all know how that went. I guess even if Mercedes is 5 seconds ahead of everyone, nobody will raise an eyebrow because it will be ingenious and innovative.

It’s weird isn’t it. Today they were 1.3 seconds faster than last year and the W10 was a hell of a car already. That’s just crazy. I’m not saying their car is illegal, but it’s strange no one raises an eyebrow. At least yet.
Let’s put the PU aside, it’s almost as if there is something special going on on their car and DAS is only there to put the focus off of something else. Just can’t believe DAS making that much of a difference to overall performance.

Fun fact - RB actually had marginally better top speed than Mercedes yesterday. Difference is really in the chassis/aero. RB wasn't that great in high speed corners in Austria and that continued in Hungary, but on top of that they've lost their edge in low-speed corners due to their weird balance issues.

Looking at austria and RP straight line performance in Hungary I'd say mercedes most likely does have a smidgen over honda, but that's the least of RB's problems at this time.

[JPBD1990]

I wonder if you would have shared that notion if the shoe was on the other foot. I am not in on artificially handicapping the Mercedes team by having reverse grids and all that sort of nonsense. I think that's bullish!t! I want someone to do a better job and beat them.

But this comparison to the "Schumacher days" and the "Vettel days" does not float. Schumacher had two, at best three such years and Vettel two. The Mercedes juggernaut has been on for seven years and it will be eight next year. As a fan, there's nothing to watch even if Schumacher or Vettel or Hamilton or anyone is endlessly winning.

At this present moment, I have no problem with 2020 but its horrendously idiotic to call 2021 and 2020 separate championships. The cars are frozen. We will basically see Hamilton vs Bottas for two years for the championship and I don't think as a fan of the sport first, I'm interested in seeing that crap. It's this sort of thing that has pushed away so much of F1's fan following.

This this all of this!
I’m an F1 fan first and foremost, and I don’t think F1/FOM/FIA have handled things appropriately to allow and to foster greater competition to take on Mercedes. Why would they freeze engine development now? Surely that only serves one team. Why would they implement a token system now? Why would they allow something like DAS when it’s borderline to begin with (changes toe under Parc ferme conditions because it’s arbitrarily part of the ‘steering system’) when it only serves one team?

They should derestrict things to allow the other teams to work in what is the most efficient way for them. Costs are already horrendously out of control, I don’t see how limiting things even further can possibly foster competition. The budget cap MAY help, but Mercedes already have such a significant advantage, of course they’re going to arrive at the new regs with the biggest advantage, with everyone else hamstrung.

The Schumacher era does indeed not add up. F1 and the FIA made constant changes to increase competition (changing the points system, changing tyre rules for 2005, etc). It seems the only rule changes since the Mercedes era began are about providing parity arbitrarily, but not actually allowing teams to close the gap.

To even question these things is considered blasphemous by Mercedes supporters, but again - I want to watch and be excited by F1. Mercedes is the best, we get it. Now how can we foster closer competition and better racing? The current system hasn’t worked, with mercedes closest competitors being a year old Mercedes.

Who can name an awesome race (not wet) where it was fascinating because the winning driver was so detached from the rest of the race ahead that it was barely a contest? They’re not the memorable races, even if you are a merc fan.

I don’t condone cheating and as a Ferrari fan I’m embarrassed and they deserve their poor form this year, but AT LEAST we had something to cling to the last few years. Now we see what happens when that one tiny glimmer of hope is extinguished.

[Hammer]

I wonder if you would have shared that notion if the shoe was on the other foot. I am not in on artificially handicapping the Mercedes team by having reverse grids and all that sort of nonsense. I think that's bullish!t! I want someone to do a better job and beat them.

But this comparison to the "Schumacher days" and the "Vettel days" does not float. Schumacher had two, at best three such years and Vettel two. The Mercedes juggernaut has been on for seven years and it will be eight next year. As a fan, there's nothing to watch even if Schumacher or Vettel or Hamilton or anyone is endlessly winning.

At this present moment, I have no problem with 2020 but its horrendously idiotic to call 2021 and 2020 separate championships. The cars are frozen. We will basically see Hamilton vs Bottas for two years for the championship and I don't think as a fan of the sport first, I'm interested in seeing that crap. It's this sort of thing that has pushed away so much of F1's fan following.

This this all of this!
I’m an F1 fan first and foremost, and I don’t think F1/FOM/FIA have handled things appropriately to allow and to foster greater competition to take on Mercedes. Why would they freeze engine development now? Surely that only serves one team. Why would they implement a token system now? Why would they allow something like DAS when it’s borderline to begin with (changes toe under Parc ferme conditions because it’s arbitrarily part of the ‘steering system’) when it only serves one team?

They should derestrict things to allow the other teams to work in what is the most efficient way for them. Costs are already horrendously out of control, I don’t see how limiting things even further can possibly foster competition. The budget cap MAY help, but Mercedes already have such a significant advantage, of course they’re going to arrive at the new regs with the biggest advantage, with everyone else hamstrung.

The Schumacher era does indeed not add up. F1 and the FIA made constant changes to increase competition (changing the points system, changing tyre rules for 2005, etc). It seems the only rule changes since the Mercedes era began are about providing parity arbitrarily, but not actually allowing teams to close the gap.

To even question these things is considered blasphemous by Mercedes supporters, but again - I want to watch and be excited by F1. Mercedes is the best, we get it. Now how can we foster closer competition and better racing? The current system hasn’t worked, with mercedes closest competitors being a year old Mercedes.

Who can name an awesome race (not wet) where it was fascinating because the winning driver was so detached from the rest of the race ahead that it was barely a contest? They’re not the memorable races, even if you are a merc fan.

I don’t condone cheating and as a Ferrari fan I’m embarrassed and they deserve their poor form this year, but AT LEAST we had something to cling to the last few years. Now we see what happens when that one tiny glimmer of hope is extinguished.

Best post I've seen since Im lurking these forums, thank you Sir for bringing back faith

[djos]

Mercedes has such a huge team and budget that changing the rules in the manner of the Shuey era is not the answer.

The 2021 budget cap and tech regulations has a much greater chance of leveling the field than anything ever tried before imo.

[Restomaniac]

It’s not Mercedes’ fault they are just that damn good.

If anyone was in any doubt of just how good they are just look at the 2017 season. On the eve of the season the FIA ban Mercedes’ FRIC system which was integral to the Mercedes front end.....Guess what happened? Mercedes once again worked the problem and won both the WCC and WDC. That doesn’t happen by luck or chance, they are just THAT good.

[Big Tea]

I have to point out guys, the Mercedes if so far ahead because the teams that should be close to them are behind giving a "false" gap. If Ferrari had retained the engine performance and made a good car they would be best part of a second closer. Had Red Bull not muffed up this years car they would also be nipping at the heels during the race. Most of this years merc gain is infact due to the usual suspects falling back. Yes its an awesome car, but it was last year as well, but Ferrari and RbR were in the same race.

[El Scorchio]

I like the idea of basing R&D time or resource allowances for the following season based on last year’s standings somehow. I think that was a decent idea.

Much as the idea of punishing success really goes against the idea of pure sporting competition, it might be worth a go.

However, you would need to be wary of any impact this would have on some of the larger teams as a business, and it would be a damn shame if a rule like that led to the likes of Ferrari, RBR or Mercedes making any redundancies as a consequence.

Like it or not, basically all team sports have ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’. Almost always the richest competitor wins because money allows you to do more than everyone else and better than everyone else.

[djos]

It’s not Mercedes’ fault they are just that damn good.

If anyone was in any doubt of just how good they are just look at the 2017 season. On the eve of the season the FIA ban Mercedes’ FRIC system which was integral to the Mercedes front end.....Guess what happened? Mercedes once again worked the problem and won both the WCC and WDC. That doesn’t happen by luck or chance, they are just THAT good.

Agreed, they are incredible, but they also have the budget to cover bases that other teams can only dream about.

[El Scorchio]

I have to point out guys, the Mercedes if so far ahead because the teams that should be close to them are behind giving a "false" gap. If Ferrari had retained the engine performance and made a good car they would be best part of a second closer. Had Red Bull not muffed up this years car they would also be nipping at the heels during the race. Most of this years merc gain is infact due to the usual suspects falling back. Yes its an awesome car, but it was last year as well, but Ferrari and RbR were in the same race.

100%. You’d usually expect most teams to make similar incremental gains year on year. This year seems a freak occurrence in that respect so far, with two big players actually losing comparative performance.

[Restomaniac]

It’s not Mercedes’ fault they are just that damn good.

If anyone was in any doubt of just how good they are just look at the 2017 season. On the eve of the season the FIA ban Mercedes’ FRIC system which was integral to the Mercedes front end.....Guess what happened? Mercedes once again worked the problem and won both the WCC and WDC. That doesn’t happen by luck or chance, they are just THAT good.

Agreed, they are incredible, but they also have the budget to cover bases that other teams can only dream about.

Ferrari’s budget is similar the difference however in the output is like night and day.

[63l8qrrfy6]

This this all of this!
I’m an F1 fan first and foremost, and I don’t think F1/FOM/FIA have handled things appropriately to allow and to foster greater competition to take on Mercedes. Why would they freeze engine development now? Surely that only serves one team. Why would they implement a token system now? Why would they allow something like DAS when it’s borderline to begin with (changes toe under Parc ferme conditions because it’s arbitrarily part of the ‘steering system’) when it only serves one team?

They should derestrict things to allow the other teams to work in what is the most efficient way for them. Costs are already horrendously out of control, I don’t see how limiting things even further can possibly foster competition. The budget cap MAY help, but Mercedes already have such a significant advantage, of course they’re going to arrive at the new regs with the biggest advantage, with everyone else hamstrung.

The Schumacher era does indeed not add up. F1 and the FIA made constant changes to increase competition (changing the points system, changing tyre rules for 2005, etc). It seems the only rule changes since the Mercedes era began are about providing parity arbitrarily, but not actually allowing teams to close the gap.

To even question these things is considered blasphemous by Mercedes supporters, but again - I want to watch and be excited by F1. Mercedes is the best, we get it. Now how can we foster closer competition and better racing? The current system hasn’t worked, with mercedes closest competitors being a year old Mercedes.

I realize this is probably getting offtopic but how do you propose FIA should have gone about it ?
I fully agree that limiting development and freezing regulations is effectively sealing this and next year's championships but keep in mind that:

1) Several manufacturers are/were in dire financial straits and could barely afford regular in-season development costs, let alone development costs associated with new technical regulations.

2) Mercedes have already proved they can easily adapt to new regs and come out on top. Changing the regulations again has a very small chance of upsetting the ranking at the top but it is guaranteed to massively increase spending.

3) Gaps in engine performance at the end of last year were marginal. Base on that year alone it did make sense for the FIA to conclude that engine development had converged and hence heavily limit further development.

So far I have heard many complaining about the way FIA has handled this but no one has provided any viable alternatives. I am happy for mods to move this to a more appropriate thread.

[Schuttelberg]

I think this gets me the most. I mean both merc drivers come out after the qualifying and say they were ‘shocked’ by the gap to RedBull. Really? We weren’t

I feel you. Trollto Wolff has already said in an interview yesterday that Racing Point will be hard to beat at some tracks. So, that narrative is already doing the spinning.

Would you prefer it if he turned up at every race claiming his team are going to annihilate all the opposition?

You can just be normal about it. "We expect to be competitive."

[JPBD1990]

I realize this is probably getting offtopic but how do you propose FIA should have gone about it ?
I fully agree that limiting development and freezing regulations is effectively sealing this and next year's championships but keep in mind that:

1) Several manufacturers are/were in dire financial straits and could barely afford regular in-season development costs, let alone development costs associated with new technical regulations.

2) Mercedes have already proved they can easily adapt to new regs and come out on top. Changing the regulations again has a very small chance of upsetting the ranking at the top but it is guaranteed to massively increase spending.

3) Gaps in engine performance at the end of last year were marginal. Base on that year alone it did make sense for the FIA to conclude that engine development had converged and hence heavily limit further development.

So far I have heard many complaining about the way FIA has handled this but no one has provided any viable alternatives. I am happy for mods to move this to a more appropriate thread.

1) I think engines should not be frozen. Those that are contributing to their development and supply can afford the investment.

2) I think limitations of CFD and wind tunnel time should be removed. We’ve ended up in this situation, and not to take away Mercedes very apparent excellence in achieving what they have, but having these restrictions just locks in the status quo. It’s gotta go.

I appreciate teams are in difficult financial situations, so introduce the cost cap and allow teams to invest that wherever and however they want. For example, would team A get more bang for their buck with physical testing at a race track, while team B might happily invest that in further CFD modelling or more time in the wind tunnel?

Remove the token system. It can already be exploited by the likes of Tracing Point - so what is it’s value other than, again, to lock in the status quo?

I think we also need to look at Mercedes, not to ‘punish’ them for their success, but in the interests of the rest of the sport and grid. DAS - an amazing innovation, but should it really be on the car when it’s 1 second ahead of the field, and borderline legal to begin with?

Even things like tire blankets and the heat guns they all attach to their brake ducts now. The driver should heat the tires themselves - end of.

Maybe the token system should apply to Mercedes but it be derestricted for the rest of the field for X period of time?