Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:03 am
rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:53 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:19 am

But what will they do with that information if for example SF1000 has more drag than W11 and Mercedes has more powerful engine?
Engineering targets are very important.
If you know exactly were your rivals are, you have clear development targets for your team.
I was about to make the same point. This may be one reason Mercedes appear to have taken a step. If they aimed at last years Ferrari they may have set a target higher than necessary.
It seems the FIA would definitely know the claimed hp/torque. What I've always questioned is how the pedal maps are mapped. Since they are based off a percentage of PU (or ICE) torque, then who determines 100% and at what conditions. Does it change with engine modes or is 100% the max value claimed.... or is it an arbitrary number that all teams use (for example, the 100% value being the same value for all teams).

Xwang
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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siskue2005
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What is with the smoking engines seen from all Mercedes engine cars? I also saw the same thing last races aswell

Xwang
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Is it possible that Mercedes is using a water leak from its intercooler to obtain an higher power as explained here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)
?
One of the alleged (and not publicly proven at least) "tricks" of last year's Ferrari engine was a leak of oil from their intercooler.
In this case a water leak is pretty impossible to discover because water molecules are in air too so an inspection would not find nothing suspicious.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Xwang wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Is it possible that Mercedes is using a water leak from its intercooler to obtain an higher power as explained here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)
?
One of the alleged (and not publicly proven at least) "tricks" of last year's Ferrari engine was a leak of oil from their intercooler.
In this case a water leak is pretty impossible to discover because water molecules are in air too so an inspection would not find nothing suspicious.
It is not acting like steam though. Steam would be invisible when it left the pipe, then condense in air.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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Mudflap
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Do we know where the smoke is coming from ? Is it out of the exhaust or the blow by pipe ?
nah pop no style

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:31 pm
Do we know where the smoke is coming from ? Is it out of the exhaust or the blow by pipe ?
Given that it happens under acceleration it doesn't seem too unlikely that it's coming through the wastegates but I guess it's impossible to know for sure.
It happens at the same place for a couple of laps into a session.

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Sieper
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Seen it in Austria too, under heavy accelaration and when coming out of tough corners. T2 in Austria f.e.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Re: the puffs of smoke, it could be a number of benign things, to be honest. Oil overfills are most commonly the cause of initial puffs of smoke, which would explain why they happen early in a session.

And this overfill situation could also be related to packaging, which is why it's also seen on the customer cars.

On a side note, Toto Wolff responding to Mattia's comments about the TDs impacting all teams:
  • “Another complete bullshit story, technical directives.

    “There’s a clear regulation on power units, there have been clarifications in Austin what you are allowed to do or not which were important.

    “But nothing that was in any way surprising because if you comply to the regulations that was clear anyway.”
He goes on:
  • "“I think the irony of the story is that we were pushed by some of our competitors to absolutely new levels,” said Wolff.

    “It brought us to almost burnout last year to develop and innovate in a way to be competitive on track.

    “And here we go. I think we made a substantial jump in performance from 2019 to 2020 because we needed to last year and that is a little bit ironic for me.”
https://the-race.com/formula-1/wolff-ex ... nic-gains/

timbo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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What are the potential areas for gains at this moment? I guess there is an absolute maximum for powertrain performance with the current rules, so where potential gains can be made? Can it be through minimizing friction now?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
Politics! is my guess. Imagine paying 15 million or whatever for your Power unit.. then see the rival power unit with 100hp more.. It would be a massive distraction among supplier, customer, FIA, engineers, drivers, team principals.. a real mess. I prefer it the way it is. Some engine manufacturers release the figures after the formula has ran its course. I suspect we should get some actual figures in 2025...

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:47 pm
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
Politics! is my guess. Imagine paying 15 million or whatever for your Power unit.. then see the rival power unit with 100hp more.. It would be a massive distraction among supplier, customer, FIA, engineers, drivers, team principals.. a real mess. I prefer it the way it is. Some engine manufacturers release the figures after the formula has ran its course. I suspect we should get some actual figures in 2025...
I think they do not want to start a numbers race as we in UK once had for 0-60mph for road cars. Ford even altered the gearing of one car so the change point was 63 mph just not to have the 'gap' between 2nd gear and 3rd gear included in the time.
Someone could release figures of 1200hp between 1230 and 1250 rpm but 1100 at 1220 but the clutch slips at 1225 to insure it is never used. It is nice to know these things but numbers are often false information without accompanying data.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

dans79
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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zibby43 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:52 pm
It brought us to almost burnout last year to develop and innovate in a way to be competitive on track.
I've wondered more than once so far this year if that's not one of the things that led to Andy leaving!
160 96 91 6

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dans79 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:09 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:52 pm
It brought us to almost burnout last year to develop and innovate in a way to be competitive on track.
I've wondered more than once so far this year if that's not one of the things that led to Andy leaving!
Same. Knowing what a high-class guy he is, it really ticks me off that there was so much talk of Merc slipping behind Ferrari last year, all the while Binotto was gaslighting Merc and the rest of the paddock claiming Ferrari's speed is from "a lower downforce concept."

nzjrs
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:53 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:19 am
rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am

Because with this data, rivals can calculate exactly the drag of their competitors.
Today, the calculations based on gps speed traces have the uncertainty of the drag vs power balance.
But what will they do with that information if for example SF1000 has more drag than W11 and Mercedes has more powerful engine?
Engineering targets are very important.
If you know exactly were your rivals are, you have clear development targets for your team.
I suggested this in the race thread (off topic) as a regulation change to cut costs / increase efficiency / close up the field...

nzjrs wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:08 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:33 pm
So far I have heard many complaining about the way FIA has handled this but no one has provided any viable alternatives. I am happy for mods to move this to a more appropriate thread.
1. 120M budget cap

2. Independently measured power unit performance

The performance of every power unit homologized and every configuration run on track must be measured (a) and that result confidentially provided to every other power unit manufacturer.

(a) some standardized profile of operation run on the dyno

The goal being not to ensure all PUs are compliant, but to assist with allocating said budget cap appropriately in the team based on a better understanding of where one team is strong or weak relative to another.