Burning coolant fluid

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 01:37
NL_Fer wrote:
26 Jul 2018, 23:27
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
And water adds 1kg per ltr to start weight. (But! burning a ltr of fuel produces well over a ltr of water, so can it be recovered?)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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siskue2005
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Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 01:37
NL_Fer wrote:
26 Jul 2018, 23:27
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
What if they only need it for 1 lap or even a small straight of one lap? Then they would need only a small amount of water.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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siskue2005 wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 08:39
PlatinumZealot wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 01:37
NL_Fer wrote:
26 Jul 2018, 23:27
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
What if they only need it for 1 lap or even a small straight of one lap? Then they would need only a small amount of water.
But the drinks bottle would not work then, where ever the switch was :twisted:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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coaster
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 05:10

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Heavily coked, high mileage motors were said to benefit from a hairdresser water spray bottle hand pumped into the intake at a high idle setting.
Supposedly it would have a decoking effect.

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Water injection removes coke. Not sure how effective the spray bottle technique would be.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Big Tea wrote:
19 Aug 2018, 14:59

And water adds 1kg per ltr to start weight.
(But! burning a ltr of fuel produces well over a ltr of water, so can it be recovered?)

Very likely, F1 Team fuel-performance scientists will have formulated a brew to maximize
any 'power by burning %' potential of their proprietary fuel, & have also duly calculated the
'waste heat' of any water content in the mixture to be burned, esp' since they are not bound
by regular road-vehicle gaseous 'emission regulations', & so must have a very different set
of parameters as to what constitutes 'clean-burning fuel', in accordance with these 'bounds'.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Steam injection possibly could be used. Spray water into the exhaust stream the steam created exapands and increases volume flow through the turbine. I dont know if adding glycol to this stream will create a fuel to counter the heat lost from the boiling.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
11 May 2020, 02:57
Steam injection possibly could be used. Spray water into the exhaust stream the steam created exapands and increases volume flow through the turbine.
Won't work. Total gas volume (steam + cooled exhaust gas) is less than hot exhaust gas alone. This is especially true of water which has a very high latent heat of vaporisation.
je suis charlie

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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gruntguru wrote:
11 May 2020, 05:35
PlatinumZealot wrote:
11 May 2020, 02:57
Steam injection possibly could be used. Spray water into the exhaust stream the steam created exapands and increases volume flow through the turbine.
Won't work. Total gas volume (steam + cooled exhaust gas) is less than hot exhaust gas alone. This is especially true of water which has a very high latent heat of vaporisation.
edit- removed because I realise it was stupid. The problem now is not getting air in, but fuel :mrgreen:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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AnthonyG
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Joined: 03 Mar 2012, 13:16

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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wuzak wrote:
27 Jul 2018, 03:19
Maritimer wrote:
27 Jul 2018, 01:10
Water soluble oils don't burn very nicely, especially once they're in solution. The vapors can be flammable but I doubt you would get much useful energy from them in an engine. Plus theres the matter of getting your coolant into the cylinder without there being potential for the engine to pump gases into the water jacket. Probably not a path worth going down.
I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake. Wouldn't the best and easiest location to do it be via the intercooler which is after the compressor?
You can add extra coolant to the circuit from a tank and then play around with the cooling circuit pressure to control the release.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

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coaster
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 05:10

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Could the exhaust wheel in the turbo get sprayed to prolong turbo life?

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etusch
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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wuzak wrote:
27 Jul 2018, 00:39
That is oil burning on startup.

The plume near the brake light is oil from the crankcase breather.

I can't see how you could introduce coolant to the combustion process in a manner not obviously illegal.
Did you know das system before you saw it?

Rodak
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Joined: 04 Oct 2017, 03:02

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake.
Have you ever seen a car driving down the road with a blown head gasket and the cloud of thick smoke produced by the glycol in the coolant?

saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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AnthonyG wrote:
06 Aug 2020, 01:36
wuzak wrote:
27 Jul 2018, 03:19
Maritimer wrote:
27 Jul 2018, 01:10
Water soluble oils don't burn very nicely, especially once they're in solution. The vapors can be flammable but I doubt you would get much useful energy from them in an engine. Plus theres the matter of getting your coolant into the cylinder without there being potential for the engine to pump gases into the water jacket. Probably not a path worth going down.
I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake. Wouldn't the best and easiest location to do it be via the intercooler which is after the compressor?
You can add extra coolant to the circuit from a tank and then play around with the cooling circuit pressure to control the release.
And you expect that a system like mentioned will get past or around the regulations/rules policing?
...personal stuff removed...

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AnthonyG
38
Joined: 03 Mar 2012, 13:16

Re: Burning coolant fluid

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saviour stivala wrote:
06 Aug 2020, 17:53
AnthonyG wrote:
06 Aug 2020, 01:36
wuzak wrote:
27 Jul 2018, 03:19


I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake. Wouldn't the best and easiest location to do it be via the intercooler which is after the compressor?
You can add extra coolant to the circuit from a tank and then play around with the cooling circuit pressure to control the release.
And you expect that a system like mentioned will get past or around the regulations/rules policing?
...personal stuff removed...
I think there ways it would be acceptable. Similar to what made oil burning acceptable.

A possible motivation.
Extra reservoir for cooling: ensuring constant engine perfomance or avoid damage to engine in case of a leak.
Pressure changes: this is done already for example to increase the boiling temp of coolant.
Release: hardest thing to achieve, but a small "safety" valve (for excess pressure) or a controlled leak one way or another. The controled leak would of course not be legal in the spirit of the rules,but neither was a controlled oil leaking turbo bearing.

Don't pinn me down on a certain specific, but I think the general concept can be achieved legally.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel