2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:46 pm
3jawchuck wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:58 am
henry wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:33 am
Does this suggest that one or more engine suppliers don’t see the need for a wastegate?
At least that will be easy to spot. Or would they take a weight penalty to add a pair of vestigial wastegate pipes?
None of the power units use the wastegate during the race anyway, do they?

It's only used occasionally during practice:
My expectation is that they open the wastegate whenever they run e-supercharge mode. This latest reg change makes me wonder if that’s right.

If they do use the wastegate in this mode then in the race they use it sparingly, when attacking or defending or at the start of long straights.

In qualifying I would expect the goal is to run e-supercharge for the length of time the Regs allow. This is 33.33 seconds plus the time at WOT from the last corner to the start line. Last week at Silverstone Hamilton may have enjoyed 38 seconds of e-supercharge and consequently That time with the wastegate open.
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Xwang
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Today in an interview Binotto has said that a new TD regarding engines has been issued some days ago.
Do you have any info about that?
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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henry wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:44 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:46 pm
3jawchuck wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:58 am

At least that will be easy to spot. Or would they take a weight penalty to add a pair of vestigial wastegate pipes?
None of the power units use the wastegate during the race anyway, do they?

It's only used occasionally during practice:
My expectation is that they open the wastegate whenever they run e-supercharge mode. This latest reg change makes me wonder if that’s right.

If they do use the wastegate in this mode then in the race they use it sparingly, when attacking or defending or at the start of long straights.

In qualifying I would expect the goal is to run e-supercharge for the length of time the Regs allow. This is 33.33 seconds plus the time at WOT from the last corner to the start line. Last week at Silverstone Hamilton may have enjoyed 38 seconds of e-supercharge and consequently That time with the wastegate open.
Where in the regulations is the 'running' of the turbo in e-supercharger mode for 33.33 seconds is stated?

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:13 am

Where in the regulations is the 'running' of the turbo in e-supercharger mode for 33.33 seconds is stated?
Where the regulation says that 4MJ may be sent to the MGU-K from the ES per lap. 4MJ at 120kW is 33.33 seconds.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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henry wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:34 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:13 am

Where in the regulations is the 'running' of the turbo in e-supercharger mode for 33.33 seconds is stated?
Where the regulation says that 4MJ may be sent to the MGU-K from the ES per lap. 4MJ at 120kW is 33.33 seconds.
So you meant operating turbo in E-MODE by an energy path 'ES - TO - K - TO - H at 4mj @ 120kw = 33.33 seconds.
Do you believe that the 'H' running in E-MODE and sharing ES power with 'K' when in maximum output mode can last for 33.33 seconds over a lap?.

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:56 am
henry wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:34 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:13 am

Where in the regulations is the 'running' of the turbo in e-supercharger mode for 33.33 seconds is stated?
Where the regulation says that 4MJ may be sent to the MGU-K from the ES per lap. 4MJ at 120kW is 33.33 seconds.
So you meant operating turbo in E-MODE by an energy path 'ES - TO - K - TO - H at 4mj @ 120kw = 33.33 seconds.
Do you believe that the 'H' running in E-MODE and sharing ES power with 'K' when in maximum output mode can last for 33.33 seconds over a lap?.
The ES drives both the K and the H. The K drain for a lap is fixed by the rules at 120kW and 4MJ. The H drain is unconstrained by the rules. If we assume the H power requirement in this mode is 80kW, the energy required for 33.3 seconds is 2.7MJ. Total ES drain over a lap 6.7MJ.

I’m saying that the technical goal is 33.33 seconds. To do that the ES needS to provide 6.7 MJ. They start the lap with 4MJ. They need to recover 2.7 MJ over the lap. From a recovery point of view I believe it’s possible; at Silverstone, other tracks will vary.

On Hamilton’s pole lap last week braking lasted 10.9 seconds so recovery by the K around 1MJ, part throttle lasted 16.1 seconds. If they hot charge for 10 seconds that’s another 1MJ from the K. To recover the remainder they need 0.7MJ from the H when at part throttle, an average 44kW. That’s a tall ask so they might have to do a bit of ICE only running at the end of straights. But I think it’s doable.

Whether the ES, H or K can manage these duty cycles or if the cooling is feasible I have no idea. I also don’t know how the actual SOC round the lap plays out.

I believe that from the ERS point of view the qualifying lap starts at the exit of the last corner so the actual numbers are a bit more onerous.

Edit: I forgot to credit @juzh for the pole lap with telemetry from which I took the numbers. Thanks
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Yes. Agree, the ‘K’ ES drain for a lap (4mj/120kw is fixed at a maximum of 33.33 seconds per lap. My question regarded compressor being run in E-MODE, a mode to extract maximum power possible from the PU. As far as I know when compressor is being run in E-MODE it is doing so with waste-gates open and it is sharing ES power with ‘K’. And I don’t believe running in that mode can be sustained for anything near 33.33 seconds per lap.

gruntguru
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Read his post more carefully.
He explained how much additional ES power is required. (6.7 MJ . . . . 4MJ is stored at the beginning of the lap. the other 2.7 MJ needs to be harvested during the lap from braking, MGUH and possible MGUK in genset mode.)
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Compressor in E-MODE and TURBO in electric assist are two totally different modes although in both cases the ‘H’ is in motor mode (motoring). And so in both cases it, the ‘H’ is being supplied with electrical energy. But in E-MODE ‘H’ can only be supplied with electric energy from ES. While in TURBO electric assist mode it, the ‘H’. Can also be supplied by the ‘K’.
With compressor in E-MODE, the ‘H’ is always sharing ES power with ‘K’. The maximum electrical energy they can share over a lap is 4mj/120kw. And that is only possibly supplied by the ES.
With both ‘H’ and ‘K’ sharing ES power, there is no way that electrical energy sharing can last for anything near 33.33 seconds over one lap.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Maximum power output from the power unit can only be achieved in ‘free load mode’. In free load mode the ‘H’ is powering the compressor with waste-gates open while sharing ES power with ‘K’. When both ‘H’ and ‘K’ are sharing ES power, there is no possibilities of other electrical power supply source to ‘H’ or ‘K’.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:10 am
Compressor in E-MODE and TURBO in electric assist are two totally different modes although in both cases the ‘H’ is in motor mode (motoring). And so in both cases it, the ‘H’ is being supplied with electrical energy. But in E-MODE ‘H’ can only be supplied with electric energy from ES. While in TURBO electric assist mode it, the ‘H’. Can also be supplied by the ‘K’.
With compressor in E-MODE, the ‘H’ is always sharing ES power with ‘K’. The maximum electrical energy they can share over a lap is 4mj/120kw. And that is only possibly supplied by the ES.
With both ‘H’ and ‘K’ sharing ES power, there is no way that electrical energy sharing can last for anything near 33.33 seconds over one lap.
Some energy still finds its way to the turbine with wastegates wide open. Given the wastegates are electronically controlled, the teams can find a very good compromise between wastegate opening and H in generator mode to control boost pressure, furthermore the compressor bypass valve and throttles can help this.

More and more these engines are starting to be less turbocharged ICE's and more and more turbine engines with an ICE acting as the combustor.
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:05 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:10 am
Compressor in E-MODE and TURBO in electric assist are two totally different modes although in both cases the ‘H’ is in motor mode (motoring). And so in both cases it, the ‘H’ is being supplied with electrical energy. But in E-MODE ‘H’ can only be supplied with electric energy from ES. While in TURBO electric assist mode it, the ‘H’. Can also be supplied by the ‘K’.
With compressor in E-MODE, the ‘H’ is always sharing ES power with ‘K’. The maximum electrical energy they can share over a lap is 4mj/120kw. And that is only possibly supplied by the ES.
With both ‘H’ and ‘K’ sharing ES power, there is no way that electrical energy sharing can last for anything near 33.33 seconds over one lap.
Some energy still finds its way to the turbine with wastegates wide open. Given the wastegates are electronically controlled, the teams can find a very good compromise between wastegate opening and H in generator mode to control boost pressure, furthermore the compressor bypass valve and throttles can help this.

More and more these engines are starting to be less turbocharged ICE's and more and more turbine engines with an ICE acting as the combustor.
Electronically controlled or not, With waste-gate/s fully opened (free load mode) no exhaust energy recovery by the turbine is possible.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

gruntguru
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:10 am
With compressor in E-MODE, the ‘H’ is always sharing ES power with ‘K’. The maximum electrical energy they can share over a lap is 4mj/120kw. And that is only possibly supplied by the ES.
Incorrect. 4 MJ/lap limit applies to the MGUK only. ES ->MGUH is unlimited. So if the car starts a lap with the maximum 4 MJ SOC, the MGUK can be run at max power for up to 33.3s (or longer for lower power levels).

The MGUH can additionally be powered on the same lap using:
1. Any of the 4 MJ not used by the MGUK.
2. Any energy harvested by the MGUH or MGUK during the current lap.
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saviour stivala
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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While ES > 'K' is limited to 4mj for 33.33 second per lap. ES > MGU-H is unlimited. A fully charged ES is limited to a maximum of 4mj. When in free load mode with waste-gates fully open 'H' is sharing ES power with 'K'. There is no other source of electrical power supply possible. Neither to 'K' or 'H' nor to ES. In free load mode, ES > H unlimited or not, there is only in 4mj per lap available from ES.

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hollus
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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The ES is not limited to supply 4mj over a lap. Its State Of Charge cannot differ by more of 4mj during parts of the same lap. This last sentence is actual limit written in the regs. To say that the energy drained is limited to 4mj is just a narrow interpretation.
You can build a 100mj storage, as long as you wiggle over only 4Mj over a lap, and you can use more than 4mj in one lap.

We went through this same issu in the Ferrari PU thread not that long ago:
hollus wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:57 pm
The K can draw its 4MJ at certain parts of the lap, but put energy back into storage at other parts of the lap. All in the same lap. The H can also put power into storage at certain parts of the lap, while drawing power at other parts of the lap. (I hope I didn't mangle this).
You can drink more than 1 L from a 1 L bottle. Obviously by refilling it in between. The rules only tell you that your bottle cannot be larger than 4MJ (excuse me, I meant 1L), they do not say how much you can drink from the bottle.
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