2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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siskue2005
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:26 am

It was as dirty as it gets. Using oil as fuel was not allowed so none of the engines was exactly legal.
One has to wonder how many dirty little holes mercedes has exploited over the years, or even worse how many times FIA let das happen.
But I guess that's in their company's DNA so it's OK.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/2088 ... ating-fine
You are legally allowed to burn oil in the combustion chamber, even now every Engine manufacturers are burning oil since 2014. The FIA just restricted the amount of oil used, and it was not at all prohibited to burn them, just that its amount is being restricted.
There was no absolute rule where it is mentioned oil shouldnot burned, its use was restricted to reduce Merc's advantage. But the ironic part of that rule was it affected Ferrari more than it affected any other team

But the reason this thread was taken out is that, this was the race leclerc won with a proper illegal engine, and how they got off without any punishment and a secret deal, it is typical FIArrari. :roll:
There are no other team in F1 given these kind of shady rules being applied to. :?
I used to be ferrari fan, glad i moved away
Image
The picture sums it up really :lol: :lol:

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Big Tea wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:33 am
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:29 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:24 am


Was there any report of what the 'actual' oil use of that engine was?
None that I know of.
It was ending in combustion chamber, so it was producing power anyway.
What I mean is we were never told if it met the newer reg anyway or if it continued burning at the earlier rate.
I think there is no doubt it was being burned, but if it was reduced to conform with the newer limit it is not the same as breaking an agreement, even if it was a new unit
I understand what you're saying.
I have no idea, but they brought the engine early so they could use the extra oil

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:08 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:26 am

It was as dirty as it gets. Using oil as fuel was not allowed so none of the engines was exactly legal.
One has to wonder how many dirty little holes mercedes has exploited over the years, or even worse how many times FIA let das happen.
But I guess that's in their company's DNA so it's OK.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/2088 ... ating-fine
You are legally allowed to burn oil in the combustion chamber, even now every Engine manufacturers are burning oil since 2014. The FIA just restricted the amount of oil used, and it was not at all prohibited to burn them, just that its amount is being restricted.
There was no absolute rule where it is mentioned oil shouldnot burned, its use was restricted to reduce Merc's advantage. But the ironic part of that rule was it affected Ferrari more than it affected any other team

But the reason this thread was taken out is that, this was the race leclerc won with a proper illegal engine, and how they got off without any punishment and a secret deal, it is typical FIArrari. :roll:
There are no other team in F1 given these kind of shady rules being applied to. :?
I used to be ferrari fan, glad i moved away
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/736 ... dce689.jpg
The picture sums it up really :lol: :lol:
Rules prohibit use the oil as fuel.
There is zero evidence that ferrari used illegal engine.
If have even a guess of what ferrari did, please bring it forward.

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:21 pm
There is zero evidence that ferrari used illegal engine.
Yeah, and earth is Flat :wink:

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:21 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:08 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:26 am

It was as dirty as it gets. Using oil as fuel was not allowed so none of the engines was exactly legal.
One has to wonder how many dirty little holes mercedes has exploited over the years, or even worse how many times FIA let das happen.
But I guess that's in their company's DNA so it's OK.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/24/2088 ... ating-fine
You are legally allowed to burn oil in the combustion chamber, even now every Engine manufacturers are burning oil since 2014. The FIA just restricted the amount of oil used, and it was not at all prohibited to burn them, just that its amount is being restricted.
There was no absolute rule where it is mentioned oil shouldnot burned, its use was restricted to reduce Merc's advantage. But the ironic part of that rule was it affected Ferrari more than it affected any other team

But the reason this thread was taken out is that, this was the race leclerc won with a proper illegal engine, and how they got off without any punishment and a secret deal, it is typical FIArrari. :roll:
There are no other team in F1 given these kind of shady rules being applied to. :?
I used to be ferrari fan, glad i moved away
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/736 ... dce689.jpg
The picture sums it up really :lol: :lol:
Rules prohibit use the oil as fuel.
There is zero evidence that ferrari used illegal engine.
If have even a guess of what ferrari did, please bring it forward.

The evidence is clear to see, they had issues last year with overheating engine control electronics which actually cost leclerc a win in Bahrain, after the secondary encrypted fuel flow sensor was added at the us go Ferrari lost alot of pace, then you have a 4kg fuel discrepancy in Abu Dhabi with leclercs car where they were trying to cover it up

Edit: and since they didn't really accomplish much the first half of the season, immediately right after the summer break it was pole after pole and race wins, coupled it with it was suppose to be a low drag philosophy I gave them the benefit of the doubt until Japan rolls around and Bam they put it on pole on the high down force circuit, that's were it really came a light bulb for me imho

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:35 pm

The evidence is clear to see, they had issues last year with overheating engine control electronics which actually cost leclerc a win in Bahrain, after the secondary encrypted fuel flow sensor was added at the us go Ferrari lost alot of pace, then you have a 4kg fuel discrepancy in Abu Dhabi with leclercs car where they were trying to cover it up

Edit: and since they didn't really accomplish much the first half of the season, immediately right after the summer break it was pole after pole and race wins, coupled it with it was suppose to be a low drag philosophy I gave them the benefit of the doubt until Japan rolls around and Bam they put it on pole on the high down force circuit, that's were it really came a light bulb for me imho
For me it was Singapore GP, when the pulled 5 tenths in the short straight and put it on pole; that's were it really came to me something was wrong.

I blame ferrari, if they wanted to cheat, then they should have done it from the first race and build a lead and won the championship (as they know the FIA wont punish them)...instead it was silly to do it all of a sudden or atleast wait till 2020 to do it.

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:43 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:35 pm

The evidence is clear to see, they had issues last year with overheating engine control electronics which actually cost leclerc a win in Bahrain, after the secondary encrypted fuel flow sensor was added at the us go Ferrari lost alot of pace, then you have a 4kg fuel discrepancy in Abu Dhabi with leclercs car where they were trying to cover it up

Edit: and since they didn't really accomplish much the first half of the season, immediately right after the summer break it was pole after pole and race wins, coupled it with it was suppose to be a low drag philosophy I gave them the benefit of the doubt until Japan rolls around and Bam they put it on pole on the high down force circuit, that's were it really came a light bulb for me imho
For me it was Singapore GP, when the pulled 5 tenths in the short straight and put it on pole; that's were it really came to me something was wrong.

I blame ferrari, if they wanted to cheat, then they should have done it from the first race and build a lead and won the championship (as they know the FIA wont punish them)...instead it was silly to do it all of a sudden or atleast wait till 2020 to do it.

They did it Bahrain because both Ferraris were ahead and Hamilton ran vettel down and he spun, then leclerc had his "pu issues"

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:45 pm

They did it Bahrain because both Ferraris were ahead and Hamilton ran vettel down and he spun, then leclerc had his "pu issues"
Yeah true

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

Can a mod move all this Ferrari pu controversy
To the correct thread please?

sosic2121
sosic2121
20
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:35 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:21 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:08 pm


You are legally allowed to burn oil in the combustion chamber, even now every Engine manufacturers are burning oil since 2014. The FIA just restricted the amount of oil used, and it was not at all prohibited to burn them, just that its amount is being restricted.
There was no absolute rule where it is mentioned oil shouldnot burned, its use was restricted to reduce Merc's advantage. But the ironic part of that rule was it affected Ferrari more than it affected any other team

But the reason this thread was taken out is that, this was the race leclerc won with a proper illegal engine, and how they got off without any punishment and a secret deal, it is typical FIArrari. :roll:
There are no other team in F1 given these kind of shady rules being applied to. :?
I used to be ferrari fan, glad i moved away
https://serving.photos.photobox.com/736 ... dce689.jpg
The picture sums it up really :lol: :lol:
Rules prohibit use the oil as fuel.
There is zero evidence that ferrari used illegal engine.
If have even a guess of what ferrari did, please bring it forward.

The evidence is clear to see, they had issues last year with overheating engine control electronics which actually cost leclerc a win in Bahrain, after the secondary encrypted fuel flow sensor was added at the us go Ferrari lost alot of pace, then you have a 4kg fuel discrepancy in Abu Dhabi with leclercs car where they were trying to cover it up

Edit: and since they didn't really accomplish much the first half of the season, immediately right after the summer break it was pole after pole and race wins, coupled it with it was suppose to be a low drag philosophy I gave them the benefit of the doubt until Japan rolls around and Bam they put it on pole on the high down force circuit, that's were it really came a light bulb for me imho
I am confused a little bit here.
What overheating electronics in Bahrain has to do with cheating?
So in USA Ferrari stopped cheating and lost performance, but fuel discrepancie from Abu Dhabi is proof that they were cheating in for example Spa?

sosic2121
sosic2121
20
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:46 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:45 pm

They did it Bahrain because both Ferraris were ahead and Hamilton ran vettel down and he spun, then leclerc had his "pu issues"
Yeah true
Ahhh finally a proof of ferrari cheating. Both Ferraris were in front of Hamilton!!

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siskue2005
186
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

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Yeah , the secret deal alone is proof
and also after putting 2 fuel flow sensors they became suddenly back markers. Countless articles and detailed formulation of what really happened by experts (not someone from anonymous from f1 forums) we can clearly see they did indeed cheated with their engine last season. There is no doubt about it and one person shouting in some forum that it didnt happen wont make it go away.

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:35 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:21 pm

Rules prohibit use the oil as fuel.
There is zero evidence that ferrari used illegal engine.
If have even a guess of what ferrari did, please bring it forward.

The evidence is clear to see, they had issues last year with overheating engine control electronics which actually cost leclerc a win in Bahrain, after the secondary encrypted fuel flow sensor was added at the us go Ferrari lost alot of pace, then you have a 4kg fuel discrepancy in Abu Dhabi with leclercs car where they were trying to cover it up

Edit: and since they didn't really accomplish much the first half of the season, immediately right after the summer break it was pole after pole and race wins, coupled it with it was suppose to be a low drag philosophy I gave them the benefit of the doubt until Japan rolls around and Bam they put it on pole on the high down force circuit, that's were it really came a light bulb for me imho
I am confused a little bit here.
What overheating electronics in Bahrain has to do with cheating?
So in USA Ferrari stopped cheating and lost performance, but fuel discrepancie from Abu Dhabi is proof that they were cheating in for example Spa?
Yeah they were pulsing the fuel pump in between the fuel flow sensor readings (hz) so it wouldn't register. Imo they were using the control electronics in this somehow, remember vettel had another failure with this in Russia.in Abu Dhabi they lied to the fia about the amount of starting fuel they put in leclercs car, this was after the second sensor was installed. Some how they were trying to flow more fuel than allowed by having more start fuel than they told the fia. And the 2019 spa race is the first race after the summer break before the us gp

holeindalip
holeindalip
14
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:01 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:46 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:45 pm

They did it Bahrain because both Ferraris were ahead and Hamilton ran vettel down and he spun, then leclerc had his "pu issues"
Yeah true
Ahhh finally a proof of ferrari cheating. Both Ferraris were in front of Hamilton!!

No I am saying Ferrari weren’t really that competitive in the first half of the season except for a few races, Bahrain Russia and Ferrari had pu, control electronic issues in both of those races

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2019 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa-Francorchamps, Aug 30 - Sep 1

Post

holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:33 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:35 pm



The evidence is clear to see, they had issues last year with overheating engine control electronics which actually cost leclerc a win in Bahrain, after the secondary encrypted fuel flow sensor was added at the us go Ferrari lost alot of pace, then you have a 4kg fuel discrepancy in Abu Dhabi with leclercs car where they were trying to cover it up

Edit: and since they didn't really accomplish much the first half of the season, immediately right after the summer break it was pole after pole and race wins, coupled it with it was suppose to be a low drag philosophy I gave them the benefit of the doubt until Japan rolls around and Bam they put it on pole on the high down force circuit, that's were it really came a light bulb for me imho
I am confused a little bit here.
What overheating electronics in Bahrain has to do with cheating?
So in USA Ferrari stopped cheating and lost performance, but fuel discrepancie from Abu Dhabi is proof that they were cheating in for example Spa?
Yeah they were pulsing the fuel pump in between the fuel flow sensor readings (hz) so it wouldn't register. Imo they were using the control electronics in this somehow, remember vettel had another failure with this in Russia.in Abu Dhabi they lied to the fia about the amount of starting fuel they put in leclercs car, this was after the second sensor was installed. Some how they were trying to flow more fuel than allowed by having more start fuel than they told the fia. And the 2019 spa race is the first race after the summer break before the us gp
AFAIK CE controls electric side of the PU, not engine side.
Also in Russia IIRC Vettel lost MGUK.
Have they been cheating the sensor? Maybe. Maybe not. Even FIA does not know. I believe this rumour started when RB informed FIA that sensor could be tricked.
I still don't understand what Abu Dhabi has to do with sensors and cheating, when it happened after second sensor.

IMO Ferrari lost their 2019 chances when pirelli changed the tyres, which solved mercedes' tyre problems, and created problems for everyone else. Their low drag concept was developed after 2017, when they had fast race car which, but were loosing due to Mercedes Q performance(especially since following and overtaking was not possible in 2017).

My question would be, why pirelli changed the tyres? Is there political game behind the scenes where this was arranged?
It certainly forced Ferrari to change their concept to high DH. Now Ferrari lost straight line performance, but suddenly is benchmark in tyre performance. Of course, now they lost couple of years of development and they are crap everywhere else.