Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Sieper
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Software. You must now determine what your maximum power mode (1 mode) will be as you have to run it continuously, during qualy and race.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

holeindalip
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sieper wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:57 pm
Software. You must now determine what your maximum power mode (1 mode) will be as you have to run it continuously, during qualy and race.
Will this be on a team by team basis or TBD by the engine manufacturer?I can’t remember if teams run there own software for engine modes....

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Sieper
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Good question, i don’t know that either. You would expect by team, as each team had other cooling capabilities, but that would contradict that customers should get the same PU and software as the works team.

Hopefully all will be explained the coming week.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

ncx
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I'd think that, when they say "same software", they refer to the algorithm implemented by the software, not also the values of the parameters that are used by the algorithm, though some info about the range of those values has necessarily to come from the manufacturer.

holeindalip
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ncx wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:06 pm
I'd think that, when they say "same software", they refer to the algorithm implemented by the software, not also the values of the parameters that are used by the algorithm, though some info about the range of those values has necessarily to come from the manufacturer.
Interesting times ahead indeed....

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If there was still any doubt, today’s race very clearly proves that there are some serious ERS issues this year. I’m still amazed to be the only one bringing it up.
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
If there was still any doubt, today’s race very clearly proves that there are some serious ERS issues this year. I’m still amazed to be the only one bringing it up.
Issues in what way?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:46 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
If there was still any doubt, today’s race very clearly proves that there are some serious ERS issues this year. I’m still amazed to be the only one bringing it up.
Issues in what way?
Harvesting mainly from what I see.
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:02 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:46 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:59 pm
If there was still any doubt, today’s race very clearly proves that there are some serious ERS issues this year. I’m still amazed to be the only one bringing it up.
Issues in what way?
Harvesting mainly from what I see.
How does this show itself to you? Any particular harvesting mode?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:19 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:02 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:46 pm


Issues in what way?
Harvesting mainly from what I see.
How does this show itself to you? Any particular harvesting mode?
Just my theory based on the Ferrari-powered cars’ consistently weird race pace:

1) Sudden loss of pace after first 2/3 laps.
2) Consistently fast after SC restarts, after they have had plenty of laps to recharge the battery.
3) K1 Plus mode gave a very noticeable boost last year, while it is almost useless now. Even after the fuel trick was banned (COTA) last year it was just as effective, suggesting it is purely an ERS mode.
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:59 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:19 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:02 pm


Harvesting mainly from what I see.
How does this show itself to you? Any particular harvesting mode?
Just my theory based on the Ferrari-powered cars’ consistently weird race pace:

1) Sudden loss of pace after first 2/3 laps.
2) Consistently fast after SC restarts, after they have had plenty of laps to recharge the battery.
3) K1 Plus mode gave a very noticeable boost last year, while it is almost useless now. Even after the fuel trick was banned (COTA) last year it was just as effective, suggesting it is purely an ERS mode.
I would expect all the PUs to exhibit the behaviour you’re citing in 1) and 2). In these start situations they all have an extra 2MJ to deploy until they switch to race pace maintenance of the SOC.

I’m not familiar with K1 Plus. Do you know what it affected? Use of ES and/or MGU-H?

My expectation would be that if they have lost ICE power they will also have lost MGU-H power. This is a double hit since they will be slower in the self sustain modes but also not be able to charge the ES as much which is important in Race mode. The effect is cumulative, less power in the early part of a straight means longer running which needs more ES which increases the time they spend running ICE only, which in turn is weak. The slower you go the slower you go.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:57 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:59 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:19 pm


How does this show itself to you? Any particular harvesting mode?
Just my theory based on the Ferrari-powered cars’ consistently weird race pace:

1) Sudden loss of pace after first 2/3 laps.
2) Consistently fast after SC restarts, after they have had plenty of laps to recharge the battery.
3) K1 Plus mode gave a very noticeable boost last year, while it is almost useless now. Even after the fuel trick was banned (COTA) last year it was just as effective, suggesting it is purely an ERS mode.
I would expect all the PUs to exhibit the behaviour you’re citing in 1) and 2). In these start situations they all have an extra 2MJ to deploy until they switch to race pace maintenance of the SOC.

I’m not familiar with K1 Plus. Do you know what it affected? Use of ES and/or MGU-H?

My expectation would be that if they have lost ICE power they will also have lost MGU-H power. This is a double hit since they will be slower in the self sustain modes but also not be able to charge the ES as much which is important in Race mode. The effect is cumulative, less power in the early part of a straight means longer running which needs more ES which increases the time they spend running ICE only, which in turn is weak. The slower you go the slower you go.
K1 Plus is their overtake mode which actually affects MGU-K deployment as far as I know. As far as ICE power loss having a knock-on effect on energy harvesting that is also true. I think they have lost a lot due to the regulation change on oil burning, which again is not cheating. Everyone except Mercedes has lost peak power this year, and even Mercedes is said to just have the same HP as last year.

My feeling is that a lot of Internet forums, including this, are full of Ferrari haters who prefer to think that they “cheated” while ignoring the actual technical aspect of the regulation changes and their effect on performance.
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:18 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:57 pm
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:59 pm

Just my theory based on the Ferrari-powered cars’ consistently weird race pace:

1) Sudden loss of pace after first 2/3 laps.
2) Consistently fast after SC restarts, after they have had plenty of laps to recharge the battery.
3) K1 Plus mode gave a very noticeable boost last year, while it is almost useless now. Even after the fuel trick was banned (COTA) last year it was just as effective, suggesting it is purely an ERS mode.
I would expect all the PUs to exhibit the behaviour you’re citing in 1) and 2). In these start situations they all have an extra 2MJ to deploy until they switch to race pace maintenance of the SOC.

I’m not familiar with K1 Plus. Do you know what it affected? Use of ES and/or MGU-H?

My expectation would be that if they have lost ICE power they will also have lost MGU-H power. This is a double hit since they will be slower in the self sustain modes but also not be able to charge the ES as much which is important in Race mode. The effect is cumulative, less power in the early part of a straight means longer running which needs more ES which increases the time they spend running ICE only, which in turn is weak. The slower you go the slower you go.
K1 Plus is their overtake mode which actually affects MGU-K deployment as far as I know. As far as ICE power loss having a knock-on effect on energy harvesting that is also true. I think they have lost a lot due to the regulation change on oil burning, which again is not cheating. Everyone except Mercedes has lost peak power this year, and even Mercedes is said to just have the same HP as last year.

My feeling is that a lot of Internet forums, including this, are full of Ferrari haters who prefer to think that they “cheated” while ignoring the actual technical aspect of the regulation changes and their effect on performance.
I'm asking this sincerely (hard to convey tone via text, which is why I'm using this disclaimer, as I'm just trying to understand everything that potentially went on better), and the question is open to anyone, but what about the fuel flow exploit? If Ferrari were gaming the fuel flow measurements last year, and the fuel flow limits were prescribed by the regulations as 100kg/hr, then in what context can we frame that choice?

I think the most generous way to put it would be that they were exploiting a gray area (in the sense that the regulations did not say "You can't trick the sensor and utilize extra fuel between measurements.")?

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Exactly as you said @zibby43, they were exploiting a loophole which was discovered and closed already at the end of last year. That does not explain all of the loss in performance though, which is more due to the regulation changes IMO.
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

zibby43
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:04 am
Exactly as you said @zibby43, they were exploiting a loophole which was discovered and closed already at the end of last year. That does not explain all of the loss in performance though, which is more due to the regulation changes IMO.
Thanks for the answer. I can definitely see that perspective.