New party mode regulation

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Andres125sx
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am
The question is will it be faster using a higher engine mode with more lift and coasting or a lower engine mode with less lift and coasting?

I'm guessing they will be trying all this out in practice?
If a lower engine mode with less lift and coast would be faster, that´s what they would be doing as a norm.

Lift and coast only make you loose a bit of time from the lift to full brakes point, ie few meters. Lower engine mode make you loose time the whole straight, from the full throttle point to the lift point, ie dozens or hundreds meters.

Just_a_fan
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am
The question is will it be faster using a higher engine mode with more lift and coasting or a lower engine mode with less lift and coasting?

I'm guessing they will be trying all this out in practice?
If a lower engine mode with less lift and coast would be faster, that´s what they would be doing as a norm.

Lift and coast only make you loose a bit of time from the lift to full brakes point, ie few meters. Lower engine mode make you loose time the whole straight, from the full throttle point to the lift point, ie dozens or hundreds meters.
He's asking whether it will be faster to run the engine in a higher mode but with lots of lift and coast to compensate, or whether running it in a lower mode with much less lift and coast would be quicker/as quick. I.e. in that particular comparison, which will be quicker going forward in the new engine mode regime. This comparison only takes effect now - previously it wasn't a question because they didn't have to do make the decision as they could use the modes as they wanted.
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Wass85
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Re: New party mode regulation

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I'm not really in to the technical side of F1 so forgive me but when did teams start bringing in different engine modes?

I know they had boost in the 80's but what about all these strats?

Why can't we just make it simpler and have no strats at all, just a throttle pedal and that's it?

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nzjrs
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:37 pm
I'm not really in to the technical side of F1 so forgive me but when did teams start bringing in different engine modes?

I know they had boost in the 80's but what about all these strats?

Why can't we just make it simpler and have no strats at all, just a throttle pedal and that's it?
The key insight is that these are not really 'engines' anymore. Power Unit really does describe them better.

It is three major systems (ICE, -K, -H) with different operational envelopes that are coupled together through complicated regulations which govern energy flow between the componets. So now it immediately becomes an optimisation problem, and the first lesson of most optomisation problems is that there are different local optima - at which point you have codified engine modes.

Wass85
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Re: New party mode regulation

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:49 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:37 pm
I'm not really in to the technical side of F1 so forgive me but when did teams start bringing in different engine modes?

I know they had boost in the 80's but what about all these strats?

Why can't we just make it simpler and have no strats at all, just a throttle pedal and that's it?
The key insight is that these are not really 'engines' anymore. Power Unit really does describe them better.

It is three major systems (ICE, -K, -H) with different operational envelopes that are coupled together through complicated regulations which govern energy flow between the componets. So now it immediately becomes an optimisation problem, and the first lesson of most optomisation problems is that there are different local optima - at which point you have codified engine modes.

Didn't they have all these modes during the V8 era as well though?

dans79
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:37 pm
Why can't we just make it simpler and have no strats at all, just a throttle pedal and that's it?
Mainly because the automotive world has moved passed that, most cars have multiple modes now.

It's not much different to how f1 is stuck in the past with 13" rims. I can't even remember the last time I saw a new car with 13" rims, everything comes with at least 15s now.
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JordanFiveOh
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New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:49 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:37 pm
I'm not really in to the technical side of F1 so forgive me but when did teams start bringing in different engine modes?

I know they had boost in the 80's but what about all these strats?

Why can't we just make it simpler and have no strats at all, just a throttle pedal and that's it?
The key insight is that these are not really 'engines' anymore. Power Unit really does describe them better.

It is three major systems (ICE, -K, -H) with different operational envelopes that are coupled together through complicated regulations which govern energy flow between the componets. So now it immediately becomes an optimisation problem, and the first lesson of most optomisation problems is that there are different local optima - at which point you have codified engine modes.

Didn't they have all these modes during the V8 era as well though?
Only for MGU-K. There was no turbo and no MGU-H. They were only storing like 300kJ on board, and deploying a max of 400kJ over a lap, which is nothing.

I don’t think storage is limited now, but they can only harvest 2MJ from the K and unlimited amount from the H per lap, and deploy 4MJ max to the K.

Management was much simpler for K only. The MGU-H system is a work of art in comparison.

With everything going on with harvesting and deploying to both units, there is a lot to manage. I didn’t even think there was any H harvesting happening on a Q lap since the wastegaste opens fully and the H is spooling the turbo most of the time, but it was said above that it will still harvest then.

I’m not an expert, though, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

If you meant ICE modes only, yes, those also existed in the V8 era, but it would have been simpler fuel/ignition/timing map changes. A turbo obviously adds to that complexity.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:58 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:49 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:37 pm
I'm not really in to the technical side of F1 so forgive me but when did teams start bringing in different engine modes?

I know they had boost in the 80's but what about all these strats?

Why can't we just make it simpler and have no strats at all, just a throttle pedal and that's it?
The key insight is that these are not really 'engines' anymore. Power Unit really does describe them better.

It is three major systems (ICE, -K, -H) with different operational envelopes that are coupled together through complicated regulations which govern energy flow between the componets. So now it immediately becomes an optimisation problem, and the first lesson of most optomisation problems is that there are different local optima - at which point you have codified engine modes.

Didn't they have all these modes during the V8 era as well though?
Very likely. I remember Turkey 2011. Lewis and Jenson were ordered to turn down their engines and finish in order. Then sneaky Jenson disobeyed and launched an attack.
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Wass85
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Re: New party mode regulation

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:40 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:58 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:49 pm


The key insight is that these are not really 'engines' anymore. Power Unit really does describe them better.

It is three major systems (ICE, -K, -H) with different operational envelopes that are coupled together through complicated regulations which govern energy flow between the componets. So now it immediately becomes an optimisation problem, and the first lesson of most optomisation problems is that there are different local optima - at which point you have codified engine modes.

Didn't they have all these modes during the V8 era as well though?
Very likely. I remember Turkey 2011. Lewis and Jenson were ordered to turn down their engines and finish in order. Then sneaky Jenson disobeyed and launched an attack.
Just as I thought and needing to ask for permission to use them is pathetic. It was 2010 though. 👍

Scrap engine modes and let them race.

dans79
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:48 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:40 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:58 pm



Didn't they have all these modes during the V8 era as well though?
Very likely. I remember Turkey 2011. Lewis and Jenson were ordered to turn down their engines and finish in order. Then sneaky Jenson disobeyed and launched an attack.
Just as I thought and needing to ask for permission to use them is pathetic. It was 2010 though. 👍

Scrap engine modes and let them race.
Engine modes, are what give them the tools to race.
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Wass85
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Re: New party mode regulation

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:54 am
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:48 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:40 pm


Very likely. I remember Turkey 2011. Lewis and Jenson were ordered to turn down their engines and finish in order. Then sneaky Jenson disobeyed and launched an attack.
Just as I thought and needing to ask for permission to use them is pathetic. It was 2010 though. 👍

Scrap engine modes and let them race.
Engine modes, are what give them the tools to race.
Not really, they raced just fine without them.

Surely you agree it's pathetic that you have to be told when or when not to use them.

dans79
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:21 am
Surely you agree it's pathetic that you have to be told when or when not to use them.
Nah, I don't subscribe to the they need to be gladiators mindset.

If the rules weren't written by people who think the 80's was the best decade ever, they'd have a modern computer system on board monitoring everything. The cockpit would look more like one in a fighter jet, and they'd have no need to get anything other than tactical information from the pits.

Instead what we have is a convoluted system of home base personnel passing information to the pitwall, and the pitwall passing a subset of that to the driver. Sometimes I think the number one requirement for being a member of the FIA, is to be anti-technology, and a few other negative mindsets.
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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: New party mode regulation

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:11 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am
The question is will it be faster using a higher engine mode with more lift and coasting or a lower engine mode with less lift and coasting?

I'm guessing they will be trying all this out in practice?
If a lower engine mode with less lift and coast would be faster, that´s what they would be doing as a norm.

Lift and coast only make you loose a bit of time from the lift to full brakes point, ie few meters. Lower engine mode make you loose time the whole straight, from the full throttle point to the lift point, ie dozens or hundreds meters.
He's asking whether it will be faster to run the engine in a higher mode but with lots of lift and coast to compensate, or whether running it in a lower mode with much less lift and coast would be quicker/as quick. I.e. in that particular comparison, which will be quicker going forward in the new engine mode regime. This comparison only takes effect now - previously it wasn't a question because they didn't have to do make the decision as they could use the modes as they wanted.
Yes I got it at first. But as I said, if running a lower power mode with less lift and coast would be faster, nothing prevent the teams from doing that since the beginning of the hybrid PUs. Actually they´d be doing that even if it´s equally fast, as a lower power mode increases PU lifespan and reliability so if it´s not slower they´d extremelly happy to use that configurations since 2014

Apart from Singapore and Monaco, no track has less than 55% full throttle, while lift and coast zones are maybe a tenth of that. Nothing can compensate a lower power mode, the time lost is huge

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Re: New party mode regulation

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For people who are living in the past.. the real party modes were the BMW turbo’s. 😂

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henry
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:47 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:11 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm


If a lower engine mode with less lift and coast would be faster, that´s what they would be doing as a norm.

Lift and coast only make you loose a bit of time from the lift to full brakes point, ie few meters. Lower engine mode make you loose time the whole straight, from the full throttle point to the lift point, ie dozens or hundreds meters.
He's asking whether it will be faster to run the engine in a higher mode but with lots of lift and coast to compensate, or whether running it in a lower mode with much less lift and coast would be quicker/as quick. I.e. in that particular comparison, which will be quicker going forward in the new engine mode regime. This comparison only takes effect now - previously it wasn't a question because they didn't have to do make the decision as they could use the modes as they wanted.
Yes I got it at first. But as I said, if running a lower power mode with less lift and coast would be faster, nothing prevent the teams from doing that since the beginning of the hybrid PUs. Actually they´d be doing that even if it´s equally fast, as a lower power mode increases PU lifespan and reliability so if it´s not slower they´d extremelly happy to use that configurations since 2014

Apart from Singapore and Monaco, no track has less than 55% full throttle, while lift and coast zones are maybe a tenth of that. Nothing can compensate a lower power mode, the time lost is huge
That’s what they do. They run higher power modes at the beginning of the straights and save fuel and/or recover electrical energy at the end of the straight. Under previous rules the absolute values of the power modes varied significantly from quali to race and from phase to phase in the race. Under the new rules the power levels will be the same but they will still be able to vary the length of time they use them along a straight.

The new rules set up new boundary conditions for these PUs. The complexity stays the same they’ll just apply what they know differently.
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