Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

Are Schumacher's WDC and Win records under threat of being eclipsed?

Will the 7 WDC record be broken?
6
3%
Will the 91 Victory record be broken?
44
26%
Neither record will be broken.
20
12%
Both records will be broken.
102
59%
 
Total votes: 172

User avatar
NathanOlder
166
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

While people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

Wass85
Wass85
-19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 am
While people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.

There's no way to know if he was much better despite being in a happier place, does having a smile on your face make you drive any faster?

e30ernest
e30ernest
32
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 am
While people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
I don't know.... Probably an unpopular opinion, but I've always felt that he changed after his incident with Barichello's spring. It's like he never got back into the groove after that.

User avatar
NathanOlder
166
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:10 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 am
While people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.

There's no way to know if he was much better despite being in a happier place, does having a smile on your face make you drive any faster?
Of course it cant be proven, but in all top level sports the teams do everything they can to make sure their players/drivers/riders ect are as happy as can be as its well known atheletes perform better when they are happy and comfortable. Team morale is key to having a good team. So its very believable that a happy Massa would beat an unhappy Massa. What do you disagree with here ? and what is your reasoning ?
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

User avatar
NathanOlder
166
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:19 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 am
While people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
I don't know.... Probably an unpopular opinion, but I've always felt that he changed after his incident with Barichello's spring. It's like he never got back into the groove after that.
Without a doubt it had a major effect. I also think Brazil 2008 had a huge effect too. That was his last ever win! He was champion for over 30 seconds, then he never won again F1 or FE.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

Wass85
Wass85
-19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:16 am
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:10 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 am
While people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.

There's no way to know if he was much better despite being in a happier place, does having a smile on your face make you drive any faster?
Of course it cant be proven, but in all top level sports the teams do everything they can to make sure their players/drivers/riders ect are as happy as can be as its well known atheletes perform better when they are happy and comfortable. Team morale is key to having a good team. So its very believable that a happy Massa would beat an unhappy Massa. What do you disagree with here ? and what is your reasoning ?
I just feel once you're buckled in to the seat your thoughts and feelings go out the window and you drive flat out the same as you would all the time.

User avatar
NathanOlder
166
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:23 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:16 am
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:10 am



There's no way to know if he was much better despite being in a happier place, does having a smile on your face make you drive any faster?
Of course it cant be proven, but in all top level sports the teams do everything they can to make sure their players/drivers/riders ect are as happy as can be as its well known atheletes perform better when they are happy and comfortable. Team morale is key to having a good team. So its very believable that a happy Massa would beat an unhappy Massa. What do you disagree with here ? and what is your reasoning ?
I just feel once you're buckled in to the seat your thoughts and feelings go out the window and you drive flat out the same as you would all the time.
But I feel a happy keen driver will prepare much better for a race than a driver at the opposite end ! therefore will perform better overall. Theres so much more work to do before you even get in the car. SOmeone with low morale will not be as eager to get the car setup perfectly.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

User avatar
El Scorchio
59
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

A happy driver is a better driver. Why would anyone bother playing mind games with their team mate/opponent otherwise (Rosberg/Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Hamilton and the list goes on) in F1 or indeed any sport?

If you're not in the zone or 'happy', then you've got other things in the back of your mind and you're not focused at 100%

Wass85
Wass85
-19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:44 am
A happy driver is a better driver. Why would anyone bother playing mind games with their team mate/opponent otherwise (Rosberg/Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Hamilton and the list goes on) in F1 or indeed any sport?

If you're not in the zone or 'happy', then you've got other things in the back of your mind and you're not focused at 100%
I thought Lewis is at his best when he's got the bit between the teeth?

Mind games may lead to someone making mistakes but I don't think it will affect the speed of them.

User avatar
NathanOlder
166
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

But going back to Massa, his final seasons at Ferrari, he was destroyed, in many ways. Was never going to beat strong against Fernando. At times he wasn't even allowed to be strong against Fernando. When he went to Williams, it looked like he was needed and wanted again.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

User avatar
El Scorchio
59
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:47 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:44 am
A happy driver is a better driver. Why would anyone bother playing mind games with their team mate/opponent otherwise (Rosberg/Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Hamilton and the list goes on) in F1 or indeed any sport?

If you're not in the zone or 'happy', then you've got other things in the back of your mind and you're not focused at 100%
I thought Lewis is at his best when he's got the bit between the teeth?

Mind games may lead to someone making mistakes but I don't think it will affect the speed of them.
There's a difference between 'having the bit between your teeth' and being unhappy. Having the bit is more 'raring to go' than anything else. It's usually a positive statement.

No, I don't think mind games make anyone flat out just drive at a slower pace, but it will lead to little lapses in concentration or judgement which will affect performance negatively like death from 1000 cuts. Feeling like you need to try a bit harder in qualifying to prove a point, which might lead to braking a little later a few times and locking up or going off line (which THEN makes you slower over a lap), feeling a car behind you more in a race and overthinking because of it etc. Feeling more pressure to get a good start and then failing to, through over thinking. Feeling little doubts in your mind about your decision making or abilities here and there. All these things add up and take little chips out of how well you perform overall.

Leaving F1 for another example, the Australian cricket team used to be brilliant at breaking down previously good players- particularly English ones- with mind games and things like that. It 100% is proven to affect performance. Sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently. Often a match or series was won before it had started just because the Aussies had got into the minds of their opposition so much.

User avatar
El Scorchio
59
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:00 am
But going back to Massa, his final seasons at Ferrari, he was destroyed, in many ways. Was never going to beat strong against Fernando. At times he wasn't even allowed to be strong against Fernando. When he went to Williams, it looked like he was needed and wanted again.
Exactly- I'm sure he'll have felt 'what is the point?' after a time. If he can qualify in front he knows he'll have to give the place back regardless. If he's ahead in the race he knows he'll be told 'Fernando is faster than you'. Let's also face it, he probably got upgrades after his team mate as well, never on the prime strategy etc. etc.

It's just not a level playing field. At Williams it was.

User avatar
Phil
435
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:35 pm
My first comment was the speed margin was similar.

Alonso to Massa average quali gap. Seconds.

2010 : -0.3
2011: -0.294
2012: -0.329
2013: - 0.224

Massa actually got faster in his final year with Alonso.

Bottas on average was faster than massa 3 tenths closer to 4 tenths. These are the facts.

I could easily say that Bottas is as fast as Alonso in qualifying and it would not sound crazy.
Coincidentally, I developed a parser and tool to analyze the QF performances of team-mates:

2010 Alonso : 14 vs Massa : 3 (82% / 18%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.296
--- Total avg per km : -0.063

2011 Alonso : 15 vs Massa : 4 (79% / 21%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.294
--- Total avg per km : -0.062

2012 Alonso : 17 vs Massa : 3 (85% / 15%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.329
--- Total avg per km : -0.064

2013 Alonso : 10 vs Massa : 8 (56% / 44%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.224
--- Total avg per km : -0.045

-----------------------------------------------

2014 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.205
--- Total avg per km : -0.037

2015 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.211
--- Total avg per km : -0.039

2016 Bottas : 17 vs Massa : 4 (81% / 19%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.285
--- Total avg per km : -0.060


^^ Only comparable sessions are used. If only one driver made it into Q3/Q2, then the Q2/Q1 time was used to compare. I also saved the length of each track, so it gives a better representation of their performance (a shorter track will yield a smaller difference between drivers).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Wass85
Wass85
-19
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:11 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:39 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:35 pm
My first comment was the speed margin was similar.

Alonso to Massa average quali gap. Seconds.

2010 : -0.3
2011: -0.294
2012: -0.329
2013: - 0.224

Massa actually got faster in his final year with Alonso.

Bottas on average was faster than massa 3 tenths closer to 4 tenths. These are the facts.

I could easily say that Bottas is as fast as Alonso in qualifying and it would not sound crazy.
Coincidentally, I developed a parser and tool to analyze the QF performances of team-mates:

2010 Alonso : 14 vs Massa : 3 (82% / 18%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.296
--- Total avg per km : -0.063

2011 Alonso : 15 vs Massa : 4 (79% / 21%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.294
--- Total avg per km : -0.062

2012 Alonso : 17 vs Massa : 3 (85% / 15%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.329
--- Total avg per km : -0.064

2013 Alonso : 10 vs Massa : 8 (56% / 44%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.224
--- Total avg per km : -0.045

-----------------------------------------------

2014 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.205
--- Total avg per km : -0.037

2015 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.211
--- Total avg per km : -0.039

2016 Bottas : 17 vs Massa : 4 (81% / 19%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.285
--- Total avg per km : -0.060


^^ Only comparable sessions are used. If only one driver made it into Q3/Q2, then the Q2/Q1 time was used to compare. I also saved the length of each track, so it gives a better representation of their performance (a shorter track will yield a smaller difference between drivers).
So Alonso was faster on average than Bottas relative to Massa.

User avatar
Phil
435
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

Post

Yes, I'd conclude that. I must say that comparing times without context is always problematic. Data like this can be misrepresented. I.e. if one of the drivers had a bad Q2 because something wasn't right in the car and thus doesn't make it into Q3, the time still stands and is used to compare. The data is simply too big (for me) to go back and analyze each session, understand and put into the right context, therefore, it is what it is. One could assume that across a season, these "problems" even out.

Given Alonso's strength in qualifying though, I personally think that the data does support that quite evidently that he was the much quicker driver across the season. Bottas too, to be fair, just not by the same margin. This could have many reasons; 1.) Bottas isn't as quick as Alonso 2.) Massa was quicker in the hybrid era than he was before.

Personally I think it's a bit of both. Alonso is a very very quick driver. He has demonstrated this well across his entire F1 career. But adding to that, I also think that Massa underperformed at Ferrari, perhaps as a result of him not receiving the same backing and support by the team. When he switched to Williams, I think he immediately felt much more comfortable in this new surrounding and this possibly also carried over towards his general performance, making him a more formidable competitor.

Just my 2 cents.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter