NathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 amWhile people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
I don't know.... Probably an unpopular opinion, but I've always felt that he changed after his incident with Barichello's spring. It's like he never got back into the groove after that.NathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 amWhile people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
Of course it cant be proven, but in all top level sports the teams do everything they can to make sure their players/drivers/riders ect are as happy as can be as its well known atheletes perform better when they are happy and comfortable. Team morale is key to having a good team. So its very believable that a happy Massa would beat an unhappy Massa. What do you disagree with here ? and what is your reasoning ?Wass85 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:10 amNathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 amWhile people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
There's no way to know if he was much better despite being in a happier place, does having a smile on your face make you drive any faster?
Without a doubt it had a major effect. I also think Brazil 2008 had a huge effect too. That was his last ever win! He was champion for over 30 seconds, then he never won again F1 or FE.e30ernest wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:19 amI don't know.... Probably an unpopular opinion, but I've always felt that he changed after his incident with Barichello's spring. It's like he never got back into the groove after that.NathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 amWhile people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
I just feel once you're buckled in to the seat your thoughts and feelings go out the window and you drive flat out the same as you would all the time.NathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:16 amOf course it cant be proven, but in all top level sports the teams do everything they can to make sure their players/drivers/riders ect are as happy as can be as its well known atheletes perform better when they are happy and comfortable. Team morale is key to having a good team. So its very believable that a happy Massa would beat an unhappy Massa. What do you disagree with here ? and what is your reasoning ?Wass85 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:10 amNathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:39 amWhile people are talking about Massa, he was much better in his seasons at Williams than he was in his final years at Ferrari, He had no motivation with the team moulded around Alonso. The Spring, The Team Orders, The Title loss destroyed him. A change of scenery done the poor guy a world of good in my opinion.
There's no way to know if he was much better despite being in a happier place, does having a smile on your face make you drive any faster?
But I feel a happy keen driver will prepare much better for a race than a driver at the opposite end ! therefore will perform better overall. Theres so much more work to do before you even get in the car. SOmeone with low morale will not be as eager to get the car setup perfectly.Wass85 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:23 amI just feel once you're buckled in to the seat your thoughts and feelings go out the window and you drive flat out the same as you would all the time.NathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:16 amOf course it cant be proven, but in all top level sports the teams do everything they can to make sure their players/drivers/riders ect are as happy as can be as its well known atheletes perform better when they are happy and comfortable. Team morale is key to having a good team. So its very believable that a happy Massa would beat an unhappy Massa. What do you disagree with here ? and what is your reasoning ?
I thought Lewis is at his best when he's got the bit between the teeth?El Scorchio wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:44 amA happy driver is a better driver. Why would anyone bother playing mind games with their team mate/opponent otherwise (Rosberg/Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Hamilton and the list goes on) in F1 or indeed any sport?
If you're not in the zone or 'happy', then you've got other things in the back of your mind and you're not focused at 100%
There's a difference between 'having the bit between your teeth' and being unhappy. Having the bit is more 'raring to go' than anything else. It's usually a positive statement.Wass85 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:47 amI thought Lewis is at his best when he's got the bit between the teeth?El Scorchio wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:44 amA happy driver is a better driver. Why would anyone bother playing mind games with their team mate/opponent otherwise (Rosberg/Schumacher/Senna/Prost/Hamilton and the list goes on) in F1 or indeed any sport?
If you're not in the zone or 'happy', then you've got other things in the back of your mind and you're not focused at 100%
Mind games may lead to someone making mistakes but I don't think it will affect the speed of them.
Exactly- I'm sure he'll have felt 'what is the point?' after a time. If he can qualify in front he knows he'll have to give the place back regardless. If he's ahead in the race he knows he'll be told 'Fernando is faster than you'. Let's also face it, he probably got upgrades after his team mate as well, never on the prime strategy etc. etc.NathanOlder wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:00 amBut going back to Massa, his final seasons at Ferrari, he was destroyed, in many ways. Was never going to beat strong against Fernando. At times he wasn't even allowed to be strong against Fernando. When he went to Williams, it looked like he was needed and wanted again.
Coincidentally, I developed a parser and tool to analyze the QF performances of team-mates:PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:35 pmMy first comment was the speed margin was similar.
Alonso to Massa average quali gap. Seconds.
2010 : -0.3
2011: -0.294
2012: -0.329
2013: - 0.224
Massa actually got faster in his final year with Alonso.
Bottas on average was faster than massa 3 tenths closer to 4 tenths. These are the facts.
I could easily say that Bottas is as fast as Alonso in qualifying and it would not sound crazy.
So Alonso was faster on average than Bottas relative to Massa.Phil wrote: ↑Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:39 pmCoincidentally, I developed a parser and tool to analyze the QF performances of team-mates:PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:35 pmMy first comment was the speed margin was similar.
Alonso to Massa average quali gap. Seconds.
2010 : -0.3
2011: -0.294
2012: -0.329
2013: - 0.224
Massa actually got faster in his final year with Alonso.
Bottas on average was faster than massa 3 tenths closer to 4 tenths. These are the facts.
I could easily say that Bottas is as fast as Alonso in qualifying and it would not sound crazy.
2010 Alonso : 14 vs Massa : 3 (82% / 18%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.296
--- Total avg per km : -0.063
2011 Alonso : 15 vs Massa : 4 (79% / 21%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.294
--- Total avg per km : -0.062
2012 Alonso : 17 vs Massa : 3 (85% / 15%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.329
--- Total avg per km : -0.064
2013 Alonso : 10 vs Massa : 8 (56% / 44%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.224
--- Total avg per km : -0.045
-----------------------------------------------
2014 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.205
--- Total avg per km : -0.037
2015 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.211
--- Total avg per km : -0.039
2016 Bottas : 17 vs Massa : 4 (81% / 19%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.285
--- Total avg per km : -0.060
^^ Only comparable sessions are used. If only one driver made it into Q3/Q2, then the Q2/Q1 time was used to compare. I also saved the length of each track, so it gives a better representation of their performance (a shorter track will yield a smaller difference between drivers).