2020 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, September 4 - 6

[El Scorchio]

All this indicates is F2 safety protocols are potentially more lackadaisical than F1.

It would be unwise to use that as a mechanism to suggest F1 should become less strict in this regard. Lest some forget, F2 recorded a driver death last year, quite possibly precipitated by debris on track.

Cranes and/or marshals on track should automatically trigger a safety car.

I think the issue is more that why is a VSC deemed ok in non F1 races where it's not in F1 races? The Magnussen thing is a prime example of something VSC is almost tailor made for. That's a FAR less hazardous situation than the one in the picture yet it's full safety car? We were told VSC wouldn't happen this year because of lack of marshalls- clearly that's not true if it happens in F2. Agree that safety is paramount but why does this prove or suggest that F2 isn't properly run? It's all under the same banner and I'd expect if there were concerns that it would follow the same protocol as F1. Horrible as it was, the Hubert accident is a bit irrelevant to this discussion.

Like I said, Masi admitted he has one eye on the 'spectacle' so I can't help but think the proliferation of full SC this season is absolutely related to that in order to add the extra element of lottery and uncertainty to 'liven up' a race. Whether he's been asked to or whether it's his call is another matter, but either way it's not his job to make it a spectacle or to interfere unnecessarily in a race which may alter the result- which it absolutely does do at times.

And my argument was, the F2 situation was not acceptable and should have seen the safety car deployed.

Yes, I agree with that- this particular incident should be safety car- especially in line with protocols in F1 this season, but the point is that this scenario proves VSC is absolutely available this season so why is the safety car being used in F1 for incidents that are far far less dangerous and far more trivial than this? You have to say that on this evidence the Magnussen thing should/could have absolutely been treated with VSC in F2, which in my view is the appropriate measure considering the situation of the race and the position of Magnussen's car and relative risk. So why was it deemed necessary to use full safety car there? IMO the only rational reasoning can be that VSC wasn't available, which it clearly is. There have been several other incidents this season when full SC has been deployed where in the past it wouldn't have and countless people on race threads are rightly asking why it's necessary? Why hasn't there been a SINGLE instance of VSC in an F1 Grand Prix this year? It just doesn't add up to me.

[El Scorchio]

I think the issue is more that why is a VSC deemed ok in non F1 races where it's not in F1 races? The Magnussen thing is a prime example of something VSC is almost tailor made for. That's a FAR less hazardous situation than the one in the picture yet it's full safety car? We were told VSC wouldn't happen this year because of lack of marshalls- clearly that's not true if it happens in F2. Agree that safety is paramount but why does this prove or suggest that F2 isn't properly run? It's all under the same banner and I'd expect if there were concerns that it would follow the same protocol as F1. Horrible as it was, the Hubert accident is a bit irrelevant to this discussion.

Like I said, Masi admitted he has one eye on the 'spectacle' so I can't help but think the proliferation of full SC this season is absolutely related to that in order to add the extra element of lottery and uncertainty to 'liven up' a race. Whether he's been asked to or whether it's his call is another matter, but either way it's not his job to make it a spectacle or to interfere unnecessarily in a race which may alter the result- which it absolutely does do at times.

And my argument was, the F2 situation was not acceptable and should have seen the safety car deployed.

Yes, I agree with that- this particular incident should be safety car- especially in line with protocols in F1 this season, but the point is that this scenario proves VSC is absolutely available this season so why is the safety car being used in F1 for incidents that are far far less dangerous and far more trivial than this? You have to say that on this evidence the Magnussen thing would have absolutely been treated with VSC in F2, which in my view is the appropriate measure considering the situation of the race and the position of Magnussen's car and relative risk and could/should have been ised in the F1. So why was it deemed necessary to use full safety car there? IMO the only rational reasoning can be that VSC wasn't available, which it clearly is. There have been several other incidents this season when full SC has been deployed where in the past it wouldn't have and countless people on race threads are rightly asking why it's necessary? Why hasn't there been a SINGLE instance of VSC in an F1 Grand Prix this year? It just doesn't add up to me.

[JordanMugen]

I wonder if this is something that teams/drivers actively read each weekend and check out as part of the "track walk"...

Apparently Russell was onto it and told the Williams team about the closed pit before they told him.

Do Mercedes need a young, hungry driver like Russell who is switched-on and across all aspects of the sport, to push the team?

It's not a question of being smart. Hamilton isn't a strategist so it's not in his remit to have all the permutations and outcomes in his mind.

Russell knew about the boards. Is that the difference between a veteran racer with 200+ races who has raced here 15 times before and is going through the motions somewhat (sorry I don't know the exact number) and a young, hungry driver?

[214270]

So apparently Formula E has things announced via Radio to the drivers from race control? is this true?

You do hear the race director a lot announcing things over the radio, you hear it on the tv feed. So I guess the drivers will get the same if they want it.

Amazed this isn't the same in F1, it seems so simple and would solve a lot of issues for teams. All it takes is missing one flag and it can ruin your race, but expecting drivers to be able to always see the flags is silly imo. These guys are racing around at 150mph+, changing things on the dash and looking at corner apexes they need to hit.

Some of my fav radio messages are when the drivers rebuke their engineer for saying something on the radio whilst they’re in a corner/battling another driver. Implementation of this radio system would be a bit complex I imagine.

[214270]

I wonder if this is something that teams/drivers actively read each weekend and check out as part of the "track walk"...

Apparently Russell was onto it and told the Williams team about the closed pit before they told him.

Do Mercedes need a young, hungry driver like Russell who is switched-on and across all aspects of the sport, to push the team?

It's not a question of being smart. Hamilton isn't a strategist so it's not in his remit to have all the permutations and outcomes in his mind.

Russell knew about the boards. Is that the difference between a veteran racer with 200+ races who has raced here 15 times before and is going through the motions somewhat (sorry I don't know the exact number) and a young, hungry driver?

Well Russell had more than 12secs to assess the info. I suspect had they had 10 extra secs we wouldn’t be talking about this.

[siskue2005]

All this indicates is F2 safety protocols are potentially more lackadaisical than F1.

It would be unwise to use that as a mechanism to suggest F1 should become less strict in this regard. Lest some forget, F2 recorded a driver death last year, quite possibly precipitated by debris on track.

Cranes and/or marshals on track should automatically trigger a safety car.

In the case of Magnussen the objective was to keep people out of the pit lane. In what way does a SC accomplish this, when 99% of the time an SC means an immediate call to the pits? VSC would have neutralized the race sufficiently, and provided less incentive for mass pit entry, and therefore may have actually been the safer option.

To clarify, my argument highlighted the fact the F2 situation should have had a safety car.

But my post with that picture was to show that VSC was available this weekend, Coz some one else said the FIA are reluctant to use VSC since Jules accident! and there are fewer track marshall etc etc, and not the FIA artificially trying to spice up the race.

But it was perfectly clear that FIA were ready to risk a crane slap bang in the middle of the first corner with a VSC

The full course SC was put out to spice up the race artificially, nothing more

[El Scorchio]

I wonder if this is something that teams/drivers actively read each weekend and check out as part of the "track walk"...

Apparently Russell was onto it and told the Williams team about the closed pit before they told him.

Do Mercedes need a young, hungry driver like Russell who is switched-on and across all aspects of the sport, to push the team?

It's not a question of being smart. Hamilton isn't a strategist so it's not in his remit to have all the permutations and outcomes in his mind.

Russell knew about the boards. Is that the difference between a veteran racer with 200+ races who has raced here 15 times before and is going through the motions somewhat (sorry I don't know the exact number) and a young, hungry driver?

I was referring to the decision as to when to strategically come in to serve the penalty, so the pit entry board is completely irrelevant to that.

Also if you're trying to insinuate that Hamilton is 'past it' or not properly switched on because he didn't see the board although someone else did, then that's so daft it's not really worth a proper response.

[Fulcrum]

I think the issue is more that why is a VSC deemed ok in non F1 races where it's not in F1 races? The Magnussen thing is a prime example of something VSC is almost tailor made for. That's a FAR less hazardous situation than the one in the picture yet it's full safety car? We were told VSC wouldn't happen this year because of lack of marshalls- clearly that's not true if it happens in F2. Agree that safety is paramount but why does this prove or suggest that F2 isn't properly run? It's all under the same banner and I'd expect if there were concerns that it would follow the same protocol as F1. Horrible as it was, the Hubert accident is a bit irrelevant to this discussion.

Like I said, Masi admitted he has one eye on the 'spectacle' so I can't help but think the proliferation of full SC this season is absolutely related to that in order to add the extra element of lottery and uncertainty to 'liven up' a race. Whether he's been asked to or whether it's his call is another matter, but either way it's not his job to make it a spectacle or to interfere unnecessarily in a race which may alter the result- which it absolutely does do at times.

And my argument was, the F2 situation was not acceptable and should have seen the safety car deployed.

Yes, I agree with that- this particular incident should be safety car- especially in line with protocols in F1 this season, but the point is that this scenario proves VSC is absolutely available this season so why is the safety car being used in F1 for incidents that are far far less dangerous and far more trivial than this? You have to say that on this evidence the Magnussen thing should/could have absolutely been treated with VSC in F2, which in my view is the appropriate measure considering the situation of the race and the position of Magnussen's car and relative risk. So why was it deemed necessary to use full safety car there? IMO the only rational reasoning can be that VSC wasn't available, which it clearly is. There have been several other incidents this season when full SC has been deployed where in the past it wouldn't have and countless people on race threads are rightly asking why it's necessary? Why hasn't there been a SINGLE instance of VSC in an F1 Grand Prix this year? It just doesn't add up to me.

Marshals were on track, it's really pretty straight forward, whether you deem it to be appropriate or otherwise.

I can't comment on all other instances of safety car usage. It wouldn't surprise me to learn SC has been used more readily than VSC, as it is a lot easier to argue in hindsight without a time constraint how to respond in the heat of the moment. Given this is not the case, moving straight to SC is the risk averse approach, the safety first approach, even if it is at times not necessary.

[Mogster]

The only justification for the F2 race incident I can think of was LOS. The drivers had a clear view of the tractor from 1000m away as it was at the end of the pit straight. Otherwise it was completely ridiculous...

[El Scorchio]

And my argument was, the F2 situation was not acceptable and should have seen the safety car deployed.

Yes, I agree with that- this particular incident should be safety car- especially in line with protocols in F1 this season, but the point is that this scenario proves VSC is absolutely available this season so why is the safety car being used in F1 for incidents that are far far less dangerous and far more trivial than this? You have to say that on this evidence the Magnussen thing should/could have absolutely been treated with VSC in F2, which in my view is the appropriate measure considering the situation of the race and the position of Magnussen's car and relative risk. So why was it deemed necessary to use full safety car there? IMO the only rational reasoning can be that VSC wasn't available, which it clearly is. There have been several other incidents this season when full SC has been deployed where in the past it wouldn't have and countless people on race threads are rightly asking why it's necessary? Why hasn't there been a SINGLE instance of VSC in an F1 Grand Prix this year? It just doesn't add up to me.

Marshals were on track, it's really pretty straight forward, whether you deem it to be appropriate or otherwise.

I can't comment on all other instances of safety car usage. It wouldn't surprise me to learn SC has been used more readily than VSC, as it is a lot easier to argue in hindsight without a time constraint how to respond in the heat of the moment. Given this is not the case, moving straight to SC is the risk averse approach, the safety first approach, even if it is at times not necessary.

Marshalls weren't and didn't need to be actually on track to get Magnussen's car pushed down the grass and into the pit lane. Clearly it's not a hard and fast rule anyway as demonstrated in the F2 incident. Whether that's judged right or wrong, the same powers that be let it happen so why is it OK in one series and not the other. In addition I thought double waved yellow means 'marshalls on track be prepared to stop' and doesn't have to be necessarily accompanied by a safety car.

It's not a case of SC being used more frequently in comparison- VSC hasn't been used once in a race this season unless someone can specifically recall otherwise- and there's been no reason given for this on safety grounds or being risk averse, where it would have been VSC in the past. It feels like there's been an unspoken change in approach and it just doesn't add up to me.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one because it's clear we see it a bit differently!

[Schuttelberg]

Pretty easily, I would say the worst F1 driver I have seen.

Thats harsh on Massa, or please tell me your not talking about Bottas ? If Bottas is the worst F1 driver you have seen, you clearly have only watched the 2 Mercedes cars this year and no other car in F1 ever. Come on man , be serious.

Yes I am talking about Bottas. I think Felipe was a feisty little character and while he was no Hamilton, he wasn't a pu$$y! Obviously, I'm not talking about the likes of Badoer or Yammmamoto or Ide but I don't think I've seen a worse driver than Bottas in a championship capable car and he's the worst by some margin. Obviously, he'll win another couple of races this year but he is not the foot nail of Rosberg and let's not even talk about Hamilton even though Lewis is Lewis and being his team mate is very hard.

[foxmulder_ms]

This reverse grid is mad. Formula is ending for me. F1 is destined to be a circus instead of a motor sport. Oh well... everything ends

[notsofast]

Some have asked when a VSC would be appropriate. That's a valid question. Based on past behavior, the FIA and/or race director seem to have decided the following:

• Disabled cars shall be removed from the track

• When marshals are on track, the safety car shall be deployed

• When a barrier needs extensive repairs, the race shall be red-flagged

Given the above, can anyone come up with scenarios where a VSC is appropriate? I'm having a hard time thinking of one. Car that has spun and wants to get back on track? Probably double yellow. Animal running on the track? Probably a safety car. I like the concept of the VSC but I'm not sure there's any use for it if the items above are followed.

[Jolle]

I wonder, on Vettel’s car, the left rear gave way and even caught fire. Could this has happened to Leclec as well? Broke his suspension enough to crash on a right hander. When the marshal took his left wheel out of the barrier, it was still burning/smoking.

[Just_a_fan]

I wonder, on Vettel’s car, the left rear gave way and even caught fire. Could this has happened to Leclec as well? Broke his suspension enough to crash on a right hander. When the marshal took his left wheel out of the barrier, it was still burning/smoking.

In the footage, I saw two items fly from the rear of his car. They could have been aero bits, but maybe they were the actual brake pads coming out. No idea if that's possible with all of the stuff wrapped around the brake caliper, however.

Whatever caused it resulted in a total loss of braking. With split systems and a balance bar, losing one side will give a long pedal even if the other side is still full of fluid. (By side, I mean one side of the balance bar i.e. either the front or the rear brake system).