Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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gshevlin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:01 pm
The reason why slower drivers are expected to get out of the way when shown a blue flag is a direct consequence of the reality that the cars cannot race each other. The "move over" rule became the norm because front-running drivers, on many circuits, cannot get past lapped drivers if (a) they don't want to let the leaders past (b) they are in a battle with other drivers for position.
If the cars can be raced, then the blue flag should revert to being a notification of a faster car behind, not a "move over" instruction. If the drivers are top drivers in a faster car, then they should be able to pass the slower car. Make them do the work to show why they are top drivers in a better car.

Which is partly why when a slower car starts higher up the grid, they have a far better race. They can have their own race, not lose all day getting out the way.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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siskue2005
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:31 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:17 pm


The best way to do this, is to have the cars prepared to fight close quarter. To me, the obvious way is to downgrade the blue flag to its original (pre Schumacher crying) intention of look out, faster cars are catching you, do not impede them (but no need to immediately ruin your race by diving off the track in 3 posts)
Pre Schumcaher crying? what is that?
Schumacher spent much time on the radio in his Ferrari days complaining of being held up by back markers. Until then it was up to the driver to get past, as did drivers like Mansel, Stewart etc. Seb Vettel did it a lot too as did Alonso.
The radio was full of 'blue flags, blue flags where are the blue flags' so eventually the pass 3 marshal posts if someone is within a mile of you and get a drive through became the norm
What? i have been watching F1 since 1994, i have never heard Schumacher cry over the radio about back markers

i sure have heard Vettel and Alonso do that, but Schumacher?? could you please refresh my memory?

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:36 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:31 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:48 pm


Pre Schumcaher crying? what is that?
Schumacher spent much time on the radio in his Ferrari days complaining of being held up by back markers. Until then it was up to the driver to get past, as did drivers like Mansel, Stewart etc. Seb Vettel did it a lot too as did Alonso.
The radio was full of 'blue flags, blue flags where are the blue flags' so eventually the pass 3 marshal posts if someone is within a mile of you and get a drive through became the norm
What? i have been watching F1 since 1994, i have never heard Schumacher cry over the radio about back markers

i sure have heard Vettel and Alonso do that, but Schumacher?? could you please refresh my memory?
I can not even refresh my own :mrgreen: But as I recall that is where it started. Quite possible I am wrong (again) but as he was the voice that was heard then it has stuck with me. As you say, I could be blaming the wrong guy, (but I bet he thought it if he did not say it :mrgreen: )
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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siskue2005
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:43 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:36 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:31 pm


Schumacher spent much time on the radio in his Ferrari days complaining of being held up by back markers. Until then it was up to the driver to get past, as did drivers like Mansel, Stewart etc. Seb Vettel did it a lot too as did Alonso.
The radio was full of 'blue flags, blue flags where are the blue flags' so eventually the pass 3 marshal posts if someone is within a mile of you and get a drive through became the norm
What? i have been watching F1 since 1994, i have never heard Schumacher cry over the radio about back markers

i sure have heard Vettel and Alonso do that, but Schumacher?? could you please refresh my memory?
I can not even refresh my own :mrgreen: But as I recall that is where it started. Quite possible I am wrong (again) but as he was the voice that was heard then it has stuck with me. As you say, I could be blaming the wrong guy, (but I bet he thought it if he did not say it :mrgreen: )
Schumacher was many things, but i have never heard him cry or whine like Alonso/Vettel/Lewis
Even after 2000 Spa race where the backmarker cost him the race win he cried about that.
Infact he used the backmarkers so effectively when Mika used to chase him down, he would overtake them in opportune moments only and put the backmarkers inbetween him and the car behind.

One thing is the blue flag rules were already in place when i started watching f1 regularly since 1994
If I'm remembering right, the blue flags were already shown to cars in '94, the cars just weren't required to jump out of the way. In '95 it was a clarification of the rules and not an introduction that meant that now when a car was shown a blue flag they had to yield whereas before it was only seen as an indication that there was a faster car approaching.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:59 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:43 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:36 pm


What? i have been watching F1 since 1994, i have never heard Schumacher cry over the radio about back markers

i sure have heard Vettel and Alonso do that, but Schumacher?? could you please refresh my memory?
I can not even refresh my own :mrgreen: But as I recall that is where it started. Quite possible I am wrong (again) but as he was the voice that was heard then it has stuck with me. As you say, I could be blaming the wrong guy, (but I bet he thought it if he did not say it :mrgreen: )
Schumacher was many things, but i have never heard him cry or whine like Alonso/Vettel/Lewis
Even after 2000 Spa race where the backmarker cost him the race win he cried about that.
Infact he used the backmarkers so effectively when Mika used to chase him down, he would overtake them in opportune moments only and put the backmarkers inbetween him and the car behind.

One thing is the blue flag rules were already in place when i started watching f1 regularly since 1994
If I'm remembering right, the blue flags were already shown to cars in '94, the cars just weren't required to jump out of the way. In '95 it was a clarification of the rules and not an introduction that meant that now when a car was shown a blue flag they had to yield whereas before it was only seen as an indication that there was a faster car approaching.
Yeh, I admit the 'crying' was well over done, but there were many 'small' alterations at that time, and to my mind were between Ferrari and Bernie with the aim of 'increasing the show'. Think back to the Senna and mansel races and even when there were turbo and DFV cars in the same race. Yes there were blue flags, but they were indications not 'orders'. A return to pre 95 would be nice

One of the 'worst' Was Rosberg holding up everyone in Monaco, but he was leading and blue flags were not relevant.
I enjoyed that BTW, but would not like to see a race like that more than every 5 years or so.

Anyway, as you say it was not MS, I can not only not disprove it but not bloody remember that far back. I can't even remember how old I am til I look at my birthday cards, so I have to concede. (its alright though, I wont remember it tomorrow)
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gshevlin
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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The hard (and somewhat cynical) truth is that drivers work out what they have to do in order to tilt the playing field in their favour.
If they conclude that moaning over the radio ostentatiously about "get number 56 out of my way, he's holding me up" will get them further up the field, they will do it. Likewise when they whine about being faster than their team-mate and will the team tell him to let them pass.
Personally, I would like to see all complaints of this sort being ignored by everybody else - the team, the race stewards, and then frequent complainers should be hit with sanctions.
The rules say that the driver should drive the car alone and unaided. So logically, no, you are not entitled to demand that drivers in front get out of your way. You're a competitive racing driver. YOU get past them. That's why you're paid those large amounts of money.
And before anybody says anything...no, punting your opponent out of the way or elbowing him off the track is not acceptable, and the driver should be sanctioned. The Senna-Schumacher era is over, and the dysfunctional values that the FIA allowed to take root in that era should be moved into the "No" zone.

Ringleheim
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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LM10 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:33 am
I don't think it's about slowing down Mercedes. It's rather Liberty/F1 seeking for artificial show and I hate it.

They're trying to turn the racing business more and more into show business.
If that's what they want to do, go to a "pace car" as used in Indy car and see to it that it comes out on the track 4 or 5 times every race.

Another thought: they could greatly reduce the complexity of the technical regs, so that you DON'T have to be an international automotive manufacturing giant to have a shot at winning.

Look at the "complexity" of F1 even in the early '90s. It was like Formula Ford compared to today's F1.

I can remember cars back then starting races with the entire engine cover bodywork off the car, b/c it was a hot day and they were concerned about cooling issues!

It was a much simpler time. And it was also an extremely healthy era for F1. 26 car grids; and pre-qualifying before the regular qualifying, b/c there was so much interest and participation in the sport! Too many teams to fit into a 26 car grid!

That was good for the sport.

Ringleheim
Ringleheim
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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gshevlin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:41 pm
The hard (and somewhat cynical) truth is that drivers work out what they have to do in order to tilt the playing field in their favour.
If they conclude that moaning over the radio ostentatiously about "get number 56 out of my way, he's holding me up" will get them further up the field, they will do it. Likewise when they whine about being faster than their team-mate and will the team tell him to let them pass.
Personally, I would like to see all complaints of this sort being ignored by everybody else - the team, the race stewards, and then frequent complainers should be hit with sanctions.
The rules say that the driver should drive the car alone and unaided. So logically, no, you are not entitled to demand that drivers in front get out of your way. You're a competitive racing driver. YOU get past them. That's why you're paid those large amounts of money.
And before anybody says anything...no, punting your opponent out of the way or elbowing him off the track is not acceptable, and the driver should be sanctioned. The Senna-Schumacher era is over, and the dysfunctional values that the FIA allowed to take root in that era should be moved into the "No" zone.
How about a 10 second stop-go penalty for any driver heard bitching and complaining on the radio about another driver?

That might shut them up.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Ringleheim wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:31 pm
gshevlin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:41 pm
The hard (and somewhat cynical) truth is that drivers work out what they have to do in order to tilt the playing field in their favour.
If they conclude that moaning over the radio ostentatiously about "get number 56 out of my way, he's holding me up" will get them further up the field, they will do it. Likewise when they whine about being faster than their team-mate and will the team tell him to let them pass.
Personally, I would like to see all complaints of this sort being ignored by everybody else - the team, the race stewards, and then frequent complainers should be hit with sanctions.
The rules say that the driver should drive the car alone and unaided. So logically, no, you are not entitled to demand that drivers in front get out of your way. You're a competitive racing driver. YOU get past them. That's why you're paid those large amounts of money.
And before anybody says anything...no, punting your opponent out of the way or elbowing him off the track is not acceptable, and the driver should be sanctioned. The Senna-Schumacher era is over, and the dysfunctional values that the FIA allowed to take root in that era should be moved into the "No" zone.
How about a 10 second stop-go penalty for any driver heard bitching and complaining on the radio about another driver?

That might shut them up.
It has to finish in 2 hrs, so nogo
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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If someone traces my posts, they'll know of my angst with this Mercedes domination but I must say, there is some serious BS going on in terms of such ideas. The reason the Gasly win meant something was because it was organic and authentic. If you start having random winners every week, it defeats the purpose of rewarding the best? It just fails to make me understand what we are aspiring to be? A sport or an entertainment business?

The "business" side of things would do a whole lot better if us fans and people that run the sport were patient with a set of regs and let a set of them settle down. It will automatically bring the field together. The 2022 project does some good things but it might not work short term. Avoiding knee jerk reactions will be of utmost importance. I really hope they bin DRS as well. Just keep things pure. It's not like the racing has never been good in F1 without gimmicks. We just have short fuses as a society these days. If one dull session passes, we start mourning. (I am guilty of this lately too)

One thing I definitely don't feel fans are mourning about or criticising unfairly is the tyres. I have never seen a supplier in any side of business so worthless repeatedly provide a mediocre product and benefit so massively out of it at the pinnacle of motorsport. F1 must open the idea of having a new supplier if Pirelli fail in 2022 and the yardstick for measuring failure and success should be a very harsh one as well.
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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F1 LAUNCHES FAN SURVEY ABOUT FOUR-RACE REVERSE-GRID PLAN

https://www.f1fanvoice.com/auth/sign_in.touch

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Scorpaguy
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Short answer...this will NEVER happen. Too expensive for the teams.

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strad
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Ocon / Verstappen,, Yes thanks Just a Fan, I believe that was the one and I sure didn't mean to restart that argument. I was only pointing out the likely consequence of a reverse grid.
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Diesel
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:59 pm
One thing I definitely don't feel fans are mourning about or criticising unfairly is the tyres. I have never seen a supplier in any side of business so worthless repeatedly provide a mediocre product and benefit so massively out of it at the pinnacle of motorsport. F1 must open the idea of having a new supplier if Pirelli fail in 2022 and the yardstick for measuring failure and success should be a very harsh one as well.
The sad thing is Pirelli aren't even developing the tyre anymore, they are just trying to make sure it doesn't fail. We need at least 2x tyre suppliers forcing each other to continually develop and improve the tyre compounds. At least when Bridgestone was the sole supplier it was off the back of the tyre war with Michelin.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

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Phil
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:38 pm
Short answer...this will NEVER happen. Too expensive for the teams.
Why are you so sure? The only team that is really opposing this idea is Mercedes. I wouldn't be surprised if the other manufacturers might decide against it too, but the rest of the grid are so starved for points and money, that they would surely consider it because it significantly increases their chance for points and therefore survival.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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