Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Max is already on 2 CE. So if these need to be replaced it means a grid drop. And if the problem is not solved they might break again. Another grid drop.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jaisonas wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:37 am
Wouter wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:19 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:30 pm
There's no damage to the ICE. The MGU-K didn't provide drive, so it is likely a control electronics issue.
Luckily there's time to rectify the problem
Is the result already known? Is that your own conclusion or from your source within Honda?
I've read that the CE is provided by Magneti Marelli, so it's not Honda's fault?
CE have always been manufactured and distributed by mclaren and its the same in all cars.
I don't think so, Mclaren supplies the ECU
CE includes the electric motor drivers and teams are free to use whichever supplier they want.
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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Thanks Juzh for kindly sharing VER's launch (4:20)

He appears to reach full throttle just after 100 km/h and starts dropping back immediately after that.
I think the MGUK only worked for less than a second, if it ever worked at all..
Juzh wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:25 am
verstappen's pre-start procedure, formation lap and start. tbh, not much useful useful information to be had
https://streamable.com/7p0jh8
nah pop no style

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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An interesting statement by Marko who seems to imply that Honda are behind in the ES part - possibly due to a reshuffle of engineers:
"Honda has made progress, but Mercedes is still superior in the area of ​​batteries. We have to start now." Marko explains the two engine problems at ABMS as follows: "Honda has replaced engineers. Perhaps that is why there were the unexpected difficulties."
https://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel- ... 19853.html

It also seems like Honda is RBR's only realistic option in terms of PU supplier.
One thing is certain: It is not easy for Marko at the moment. He has to please Honda and keep his best driver engaged. In addition: So far, Honda has only committed to Formula 1 until 2021. Some insiders such as ex-Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone assume that the Japanese could end their F1 involvement at the end of 2021. Marko: "The decision should be made in early October."
Looks like we might know soon enough whether Honda will be staying or not beyond 2021. For sure some more wins will help with that decision.

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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Revs84 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:48 am
An interesting statement by Marko who seems to imply that Honda are behind in the ES part - possibly due to a reshuffle of engineers:
"Honda has made progress, but Mercedes is still superior in the area of ​​batteries. We have to start now." Marko explains the two engine problems at ABMS as follows: "Honda has replaced engineers. Perhaps that is why there were the unexpected difficulties."
https://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel- ... 19853.html

It also seems like Honda is RBR's only realistic option in terms of PU supplier.
One thing is certain: It is not easy for Marko at the moment. He has to please Honda and keep his best driver engaged. In addition: So far, Honda has only committed to Formula 1 until 2021. Some insiders such as ex-Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone assume that the Japanese could end their F1 involvement at the end of 2021. Marko: "The decision should be made in early October."
Looks like we might know soon enough whether Honda will be staying or not beyond 2021. For sure some more wins will help with that decision.
I think Honda does the ES in Honda MK. They were advertising for engineers for it as recently as last year.

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Craigy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:06 am
Revs84 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:48 am
An interesting statement by Marko who seems to imply that Honda are behind in the ES part - possibly due to a reshuffle of engineers:
"Honda has made progress, but Mercedes is still superior in the area of ​​batteries. We have to start now." Marko explains the two engine problems at ABMS as follows: "Honda has replaced engineers. Perhaps that is why there were the unexpected difficulties."
https://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel- ... 19853.html

It also seems like Honda is RBR's only realistic option in terms of PU supplier.
One thing is certain: It is not easy for Marko at the moment. He has to please Honda and keep his best driver engaged. In addition: So far, Honda has only committed to Formula 1 until 2021. Some insiders such as ex-Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone assume that the Japanese could end their F1 involvement at the end of 2021. Marko: "The decision should be made in early October."
Looks like we might know soon enough whether Honda will be staying or not beyond 2021. For sure some more wins will help with that decision.
I think Honda does the ES in Honda MK. They were advertising for engineers for it as recently as last year.
That's right. I heard HPP poached one of their battery engineers a while ago. In think they also hired some HPP engineers too.
nah pop no style

Jaisonas
Jaisonas
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 am
Thanks Juzh for kindly sharing VER's launch (4:20)

He appears to reach full throttle just after 100 km/h and starts dropping back immediately after that.
I think the MGUK only worked for less than a second, if it ever worked at all..
Juzh wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:25 am
verstappen's pre-start procedure, formation lap and start. tbh, not much useful useful information to be had
https://streamable.com/7p0jh8
Look at the engine's behavior after the clutch bite at 0:20... And how slowly it starts at the beginning of the video

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:45 am
Thanks Juzh for kindly sharing VER's launch (4:20)

He appears to reach full throttle just after 100 km/h and starts dropping back immediately after that.
I think the MGUK only worked for less than a second, if it ever worked at all..
Juzh wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:25 am
verstappen's pre-start procedure, formation lap and start. tbh, not much useful useful information to be had
https://streamable.com/7p0jh8
Correct me if I am wrong mgu-k works for generation to use some excessive power until a spesific speed. yes batteries are full at start but it may load it to mgu-h. Maybe it worked as generative but didn't go deployment mode when it reach that speed. it looks like it is good until 160-170 km/h

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:06 pm
Correct me if I am wrong mgu-k works for generation to use some excessive power until a spesific speed. yes batteries are full at start but it may load it to mgu-h. Maybe it worked as generative but didn't go deployment mode when it reach that speed.
MGUK is not allowed to do anything (deploy nor harvest) at start below 100 km/h. Without checking the rules, I believe that the MGUH can be used whenever so he likely had wastegates open and full MGUH deployment throughout. That is if the H was not affected by the same issue that seems to have stoped the MGUK.

OTOH 2016 cars were traction limited up to about 130 km/h. From the video it looks as though VER was full throttle immediately after 100 km/h so it looks as though the 2017 aero/tyre regs have brought the transition to power limited acceleration down to about 100 km/h or so.

If I am not mistaken, the MGUK speed rule is to prevent any sort of traction control.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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so they use it after 100 km/h, I had read that Honda use it as generator at acceleration

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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:15 pm
so they use it after 100 km/h, I had read that Honda use it as generator at acceleration
where did you read that ??
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:47 pm
etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:15 pm
so they use it after 100 km/h, I had read that Honda use it as generator at acceleration
where did you read that ??
It is not this season so I can not find it. I remember that it was an interview with a Honda boss. Maybe that can be found in forum. because we talked about it here like "can it be used some kind of truction control"

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henry
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:21 pm
etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:06 pm
Correct me if I am wrong mgu-k works for generation to use some excessive power until a spesific speed. yes batteries are full at start but it may load it to mgu-h. Maybe it worked as generative but didn't go deployment mode when it reach that speed.
MGUK is not allowed to do anything (deploy nor harvest) at start below 100 km/h. Without checking the rules, I believe that the MGUH can be used whenever so he likely had wastegates open and full MGUH deployment throughout. That is if the H was not affected by the same issue that seems to have stoped the MGUK.

OTOH 2016 cars were traction limited up to about 130 km/h. From the video it looks as though VER was full throttle immediately after 100 km/h so it looks as though the 2017 aero/tyre regs have brought the transition to power limited acceleration down to about 100 km/h or so.

If I am not mistaken, the MGUK speed rule is to prevent any sort of traction control.
I don’t think they would use the H to drive the turbine, wastegates open, until they have sufficient traction to cope with it. If they reach full throttle at 100kph that will be ICE only, they can then progressively add the K with energy from H and ES and then finally open the wastegates to get to peak power maybe 160kW or more above when they first exceed traction limit. This will happen very quickly such is the acceleration rate. I imagine that they fine tune this progression in practise starts.
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Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:43 pm
I don’t think they would use the H to drive the turbine, wastegates open, until they have sufficient traction to cope with it. If they reach full throttle at 100kph that will be ICE only, they can then progressively add the K with energy from H and ES and then finally open the wastegates to get to peak power maybe 160kW or more above when they first exceed traction limit. This will happen very quickly such is the acceleration rate. I imagine that they fine tune this progression in practise starts.
Yes, there is little point in having wastegates open at less than full engine load.
Perhaps I should have stated "throughout the power limited acceleration phase".

I do wonder how they tune this deployment, because suddenly dumping all the power could cause them to lose traction again.
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Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:10 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:43 pm
I don’t think they would use the H to drive the turbine, wastegates open, until they have sufficient traction to cope with it. If they reach full throttle at 100kph that will be ICE only, they can then progressively add the K with energy from H and ES and then finally open the wastegates to get to peak power maybe 160kW or more above when they first exceed traction limit. This will happen very quickly such is the acceleration rate. I imagine that they fine tune this progression in practise starts.
Yes, there is little point in having wastegates open at less than full engine load.
Perhaps I should have stated "throughout the power limited acceleration phase".

I do wonder how they tune this deployment, because suddenly dumping all the power could cause them to lose traction again.
Above 100km/h the cars already have significant downforce. The extra 120kW all coming in at the same time is unlikely to be the deciding factor on whether or not the rears break traction by that point.

The current crop of F1 cars are likely hitting 100km/h in about 2s, with the faster part of the acceleration coming the faster they are going (because the downforce = more grip the faster the car is moving, until drag defeats power).

Effectively, I think most of the grid will be hitting 100km/h practically before they cross the start line, and as a consequence will be doing their ERS-K bump in a straight line. I doubt it even chirps the tyres.