Ferrari SF1000

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
PhillipM
PhillipM
364
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

I don't honestly think there's a single 'fatal flaw' in the chassis that can be fixed, hence the lack of updates.

It's pretty clear imo that the car was designed around an engine having another 50-70bhp available - what they had last year plus winter gains - and instead they now have less power than last years car.
You can't just trim that much drag off the car to make up for that and expect your aero to not drop off in efficiency - you start having problems with complementary flows (rear wing/diffuser linking, or bargeboard/floor/rear tyre squirt treatment) no longer being strong enough when you've trimmed them down to link up and drive each other.
In the case of those when they're working together the whole is stronger than the sum of the parts, and if you don't have them working together quite strong enough then you start getting instabilities as the car goes through different speeds and wind conditions.
The only way to fix it somewhat is to keep higher wing levels on the car, keep your draggiest elements in the front of the bargeboards, etc, to try to stop some of the inconsistancy but now you're also slow on the straights *AND* still suffer with the car being hard to predict.

It's exactly the issue they have. And it all comes back to bite them in the ass from bending the rules with the engine last year. They've made their own bed and there's no easy fix for it. The only way to fix the car for 2021 is to find 50+ horsepower legitmately over winter.

f1316
f1316
130
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Looking at this, I wonder if the TD’s are also meaning they’re having to run more cooling than planned - which also seems evident from looking at the back of the car - which is probably also affecting how the bodywork they origin planned. It looks like they have the possibility of doing something very shrink wrapped (ala Mercedes) with this engine layout and yet they’re not really taking advantage of it. Could be another factor compounding how much further away they are from where they expected to be.

Schippke
Schippke
2
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

I agree with PhillipM, to a point. No doubt, they're having to setup the car in a less than optimal way to try and compensate for the power deficit... I look at this in 2 ways.

1. If Ferrari had that extra power for the SF1000, would they be in the fight with Red Bull, or even more so with Mercedes?

2. If Mercedes or Red Bull were running with the same alleged power deficit, would they be performing as poorly as the SF1000 currently is?

No doubt Ferrari would be closer to the front in both instances, but would they be fighting for Mercedes for wins or mixing it with Red Bull for the podiums? I'm not too confident they would be...

Whilst I can understand that some have suggested Ferrari might've been using the engine as a scapegoat for the deficit in Aerodynamics or Chassis... that seems somewhat farfetched. That is highlighted more when in comparison to what Red Bull and Mercedes seem to bring to their cars with regards to upgrades constantly... heck, even in comparison to McLaren and Renault in recent times (and I don't mean just 2020... going back several years now).

I just hope that at the very least, they can learn some valuable lessons with the SF1000 for next year and if any of that can be translated into 2022 with the new regulations.

Nonserviam85
Nonserviam85
11
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 10:21 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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They are in a similar situation to McLaren in 2015/2017. Weak engines leads to aero and setup compromises and after that it is a downward spiral.

Sevach
Sevach
878
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

f1316 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:33 pm
Looking at this, I wonder if the TD’s are also meaning they’re having to run more cooling than planned - which also seems evident from looking at the back of the car - which is probably also affecting how the bodywork they origin planned. It looks like they have the possibility of doing something very shrink wrapped (ala Mercedes) with this engine layout and yet they’re not really taking advantage of it. Could be another factor compounding how much further away they are from where they expected to be.
I felt the same way looking at this picture, the packaging work seems really well done, but the size of their hot air exits kill everything.

wowgr8
wowgr8
5
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:35 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Schippke wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:37 pm
I agree with PhillipM, to a point. No doubt, they're having to setup the car in a less than optimal way to try and compensate for the power deficit... I look at this in 2 ways.

1. If Ferrari had that extra power for the SF1000, would they be in the fight with Red Bull, or even more so with Mercedes?

2. If Mercedes or Red Bull were running with the same alleged power deficit, would they be performing as poorly as the SF1000 currently is?

No doubt Ferrari would be closer to the front in both instances, but would they be fighting for Mercedes for wins or mixing it with Red Bull for the podiums? I'm not too confident they would be...

Whilst I can understand that some have suggested Ferrari might've been using the engine as a scapegoat for the deficit in Aerodynamics or Chassis... that seems somewhat farfetched. That is highlighted more when in comparison to what Red Bull and Mercedes seem to bring to their cars with regards to upgrades constantly... heck, even in comparison to McLaren and Renault in recent times (and I don't mean just 2020... going back several years now).

I just hope that at the very least, they can learn some valuable lessons with the SF1000 for next year and if any of that can be translated into 2022 with the new regulations.
The 2019 PU in the 2020 car puts them around Red Bull level I feel, or slightly above that. The question about how the Mercedes especially would perform with such a power deficit is much more interesting. They'd probably still be quickest at some tracks. Easy to forget they had a second in hand before the engine mode TD. If 10hp=1 tenth then I think they'd still have a championship contending car even with the weakest engine. Their chassis/aero is otherworldly

LM10
LM10
106
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

wowgr8 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:50 am
Schippke wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:37 pm
I agree with PhillipM, to a point. No doubt, they're having to setup the car in a less than optimal way to try and compensate for the power deficit... I look at this in 2 ways.

1. If Ferrari had that extra power for the SF1000, would they be in the fight with Red Bull, or even more so with Mercedes?

2. If Mercedes or Red Bull were running with the same alleged power deficit, would they be performing as poorly as the SF1000 currently is?

No doubt Ferrari would be closer to the front in both instances, but would they be fighting for Mercedes for wins or mixing it with Red Bull for the podiums? I'm not too confident they would be...

Whilst I can understand that some have suggested Ferrari might've been using the engine as a scapegoat for the deficit in Aerodynamics or Chassis... that seems somewhat farfetched. That is highlighted more when in comparison to what Red Bull and Mercedes seem to bring to their cars with regards to upgrades constantly... heck, even in comparison to McLaren and Renault in recent times (and I don't mean just 2020... going back several years now).

I just hope that at the very least, they can learn some valuable lessons with the SF1000 for next year and if any of that can be translated into 2022 with the new regulations.
The 2019 PU in the 2020 car puts them around Red Bull level I feel, or slightly above that. The question about how the Mercedes especially would perform with such a power deficit is much more interesting. They'd probably still be quickest at some tracks. Easy to forget they had a second in hand before the engine mode TD. If 10hp=1 tenth then I think they'd still have a championship contending car even with the weakest engine. Their chassis/aero is otherworldly
Do you guys really think it's that easy? To simply imagine mounting a significantly weaker PU in the Mercedes and add together lost hp to tell how much slower it eventually would be? That's not how it works, it's not a computer game.

PhillipM has already explained it very well. When building a new car you do it in accordance to all other parts and the PU is the main one. Ferrari has built the car around a much more powerful PU they thought they were going to have. As TDs hit them the car most probably was kind of finished already. On top of that they rushed the new PU.
From that point on you'll have balance issues all over the car and it's gonna be near impossible to turn things around mid-season, especially if development is frozen.

Pany
Pany
9
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:26 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

And if it is the other way around? In 2018 and 2019 they could not develop chassis and suspension at mercedes-redbul level, so they had to implement super Pu, cheating, in order to keep Ferrari stocks get higher? Just speculation,.but we leave in a real world.
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:39 pm
I don't honestly think there's a single 'fatal flaw' in the chassis that can be fixed, hence the lack of updates.

It's pretty clear imo that the car was designed around an engine having another 50-70bhp available - what they had last year plus winter gains - and instead they now have less power than last years car.
You can't just trim that much drag off the car to make up for that and expect your aero to not drop off in efficiency - you start having problems with complementary flows (rear wing/diffuser linking, or bargeboard/floor/rear tyre squirt treatment) no longer being strong enough when you've trimmed them down to link up and drive each other.
In the case of those when they're working together the whole is stronger than the sum of the parts, and if you don't have them working together quite strong enough then you start getting instabilities as the car goes through different speeds and wind conditions.
The only way to fix it somewhat is to keep higher wing levels on the car, keep your draggiest elements in the front of the bargeboards, etc, to try to stop some of the inconsistancy but now you're also slow on the straights *AND* still suffer with the car being hard to predict.

It's exactly the issue they have. And it all comes back to bite them in the ass from bending the rules with the engine last year. They've made their own bed and there's no easy fix for it. The only way to fix the car for 2021 is to find 50+ horsepower legitmately over winter.

PhillipM
PhillipM
364
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

If it was the other way around and the aero was built around a lower power level then they wouldn't be having problems with both huge amounts of drag *and* flow detachment making the car unstable. :wtf:
You could trim the car down.

wowgr8
wowgr8
5
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:35 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

LM10 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:48 am

Do you guys really think it's that easy? To simply imagine mounting a significantly weaker PU in the Mercedes and add together lost hp to tell how much slower it eventually would be? That's not how it works, it's not a computer game.

PhillipM has already explained it very well. When building a new car you do it in accordance to all other parts and the PU is the main one. Ferrari has built the car around a much more powerful PU they thought they were going to have. As TDs hit them the car most probably was kind of finished already. On top of that they rushed the new PU.
From that point on you'll have balance issues all over the car and it's gonna be near impossible to turn things around mid-season, especially if development is frozen.
It's not that serious, I'm not an engineer, just speculating on the internet. I'm just trying to highlight how good Mercedes car is this year

User avatar
Jambier
11
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Xwang wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:30 am
2thefront wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:41 pm
So what exactly can they do in the short term? It seems like there's been very little aero updates since Austria. I believe there's a token system that's for major parts which Ferrari used for a new gearbox? How many tokens between now and the end of 2021?

As for the PU, I would be interested to see how much better their 2nd generation PU would be. From what I read they just missed having it ready in time for Austria before the freeze. You would think even if it was rushed they could've used the reliability clause to pass on updates whereas now they can't do anything.
Reading the technical regulations the PU must be the same till the end of 2020.
The chassis is frozen till the end of 2021, but the could change without spending tokens:
1) front and rear suspension (excluded the internal parts)
2) front and rear uprights
3) wheelbase
4) the whole aerodynamic package (maybe including the radiators which in the rules are part of the bodywork if I remember correctly).
Till the end of September 2020 they can homologate a new front and rear impact structure without spending tokes.
I have not understand what can be modified on the PU, gearbox and differential electronic management and if the differential is frozen or not.

I understand that they are building a whole new engine for next year, and are pushing 100% on that.
I think they will stick to this 2019/2020 chassis with some changes, but they can't do much, and the focus have to be 2022 .... and the engine.

They need an engine that can be at the right level on 2022

Xwang
Xwang
27
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Jambier wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:39 pm
Xwang wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:30 am
2thefront wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:41 pm
So what exactly can they do in the short term? It seems like there's been very little aero updates since Austria. I believe there's a token system that's for major parts which Ferrari used for a new gearbox? How many tokens between now and the end of 2021?

As for the PU, I would be interested to see how much better their 2nd generation PU would be. From what I read they just missed having it ready in time for Austria before the freeze. You would think even if it was rushed they could've used the reliability clause to pass on updates whereas now they can't do anything.
Reading the technical regulations the PU must be the same till the end of 2020.
The chassis is frozen till the end of 2021, but the could change without spending tokens:
1) front and rear suspension (excluded the internal parts)
2) front and rear uprights
3) wheelbase
4) the whole aerodynamic package (maybe including the radiators which in the rules are part of the bodywork if I remember correctly).
Till the end of September 2020 they can homologate a new front and rear impact structure without spending tokes.
I have not understand what can be modified on the PU, gearbox and differential electronic management and if the differential is frozen or not.

I understand that they are building a whole new engine for next year, and are pushing 100% on that.
I think they will stick to this 2019/2020 chassis with some changes, but they can't do much, and the focus have to be 2022 .... and the engine.

They need an engine that can be at the right level on 2022
I have just answered to the question "What can they do", not "What they will do".
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

Ringleheim
Ringleheim
14
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:02 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Ferrari: Please throw Ferrari fans a bone and KEEP THE SPECIAL PAINT for the rest of the season!

It's the only bright spot on this season!

Ditch the cheesy yellow "1000" decal though.

Thank you!

codetower
codetower
0
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:47 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Ringleheim wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:25 pm
Ferrari: Please throw Ferrari fans a bone and KEEP THE SPECIAL PAINT for the rest of the season!

It's the only bright spot on this season!

Ditch the cheesy yellow "1000" decal though.

Thank you!
I LOVE the new red (even the yellow decal), Wouldn't mind seeing it next year. This year is such a let-down that I would rather wait, and not associate the new colour with poor results.

Partymood
Partymood
-3
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:21 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Ringleheim wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:25 pm
Ferrari: Please throw Ferrari fans a bone and KEEP THE SPECIAL PAINT for the rest of the season!

It's the only bright spot on this season!

Ditch the cheesy yellow "1000" decal though.

Thank you!
The "cheesy" yellow was chosen because it is Ferrari's colour, see badge. 1000 was the number of GP.
Are you suggesting that they should display 1001 at Sochi? 😂