[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Big Tea]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... n=widget-1

This is massive if they do take over the Honda engine IP.

Apologies, but why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?
Thus handover a substantial advantage to RBR?

The FIA procedural approach to such a PU dev freeze is limited to two options for the 2022 season - and please correct me (gently ).

A. Change of rules due to safety reasons.
B. Change by all F1 Teams unanimously, but with an implementation lead time of 18 months (I vaguely recall that period).

(A) I can not see how this may be argued.

(B) Well ...
(1) I can see the development cost angle, but even Honda did not step out because of the actual costs for the F1 programme.
At least this was the consensus of the majority of this forum, inline to what Honda stated officially.

Ferrari will not limit itself due to what they lost last year (and they are the one constant in F1, so there is zero chance of them withdrawing from F1). Renault just saw what they are capable of and had their F1 programme revigorated by their management (Alpine!), and Mercedes with Hybrid Power is their current mainstream approach for their cars.
Additionally, all teams just signed the new 'Concorde Agreement' to 2026, if I recall correctly.

While there is an exit clause in this new agreement (Source: Marko), chances are rather high that the existing teams intend to stay until the end of the contracted period.

So, again, why would any team, manufacturer or client team alike, give up such a fundemental advantage?

(2) Additionally, even if the teams would consent, this unanimous vote would have to happen actually now (based on the 18 months I mentioned earlier) and I wonder why nobody in the press would not have heard anything about this by now. Or at least the intent to do so.

My personal opinion is that Marko is trying to pressure FIA to do something in order to give RBR a competitive PU.
And as there is much burned Earth between Renault and RBR, and Ferrari currently not having the best of PUs, this can only mean the Mercedes PU.

Preposterous?

-why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?

That was my initial thought, then later I thought-
Honda for obvious reasons. They continue the F1 association and save wads of cash and free up the engineers they say they need.

Mercedes probably would not mind, they are sitting on top swinging their feet. No prob. save money and look at the next engine.

Renault, have a revamped engine in the pipeline, which they expect to challenge Merc. If Merc do not move forward and they do I suspect they would be happy.

Right, Ferrari. I had to work on this. They are aiming for a static target which will not run away from them by the time they get there.

They have been catching up this year, and with another year or development should expect to be back near the front.

They will not possibly have a 'small team STR' go to Mercedes and be in front of them.

If all goes wrong, they have an excuse. Not our fault, they stopped us developing this superb engine we have on the computer. It also gives them resources to work on the next generation engine.

[Partymood]

You know where the door is, fo Redbull

[Marti_EF3]

I'm a bit late, but here is the race pace of Nurburgring

Race pace



Sector pace



Stint 1



Stint 2



Stint 3

[etusch]

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze

Red Bull will withdraw both their works team and the AlphaTauri team from Formula 1 unless a freeze on engine development is introduced, according to a report by Auto Motor und Sport.




https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... veuPjNXo5g

[Wouter]

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze

Red Bull will withdraw both their works team and the AlphaTauri team from Formula 1 unless a freeze on engine development is introduced, according to a report by Auto Motor und Sport.

Nowhere is it to be read that Marko said this. This is just an assumption / conclusion of AMuS.

Sports director Helmut Marko has confirmed to Auto Motor und Sport that Red Bull prefers the solutions with the Honda engine in personal responsibility. Because this is the only way to preserve a piece of independence. Red Bull has also let those who are responsible for Formula 1 know.
The plan sounds a bit more dramatic: Either engine development will be frozen from 2022 or Red Bull will leave Formula 1 with its two teams.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... t-ferrari/

[Marti_EF3]

If the engine freeze is approved, then I expect Honda to keep until 2026, even if it's not oficially...

[XRayF1]

This is massive if they do take over the Honda engine IP.

Apologies, but why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?
Thus handover a substantial advantage to RBR?

The FIA procedural approach to such a PU dev freeze is limited to two options for the 2022 season - and please correct me (gently ).

A. Change of rules due to safety reasons.
B. Change by all F1 Teams unanimously, but with an implementation lead time of 18 months (I vaguely recall that period).

(A) I can not see how this may be argued.

(B) Well ...
(1) I can see the development cost angle, but even Honda did not step out because of the actual costs for the F1 programme.
At least this was the consensus of the majority of this forum, inline to what Honda stated officially.

Ferrari will not limit itself due to what they lost last year (and they are the one constant in F1, so there is zero chance of them withdrawing from F1). Renault just saw what they are capable of and had their F1 programme revigorated by their management (Alpine!), and Mercedes with Hybrid Power is their current mainstream approach for their cars.
Additionally, all teams just signed the new 'Concorde Agreement' to 2026, if I recall correctly.

While there is an exit clause in this new agreement (Source: Marko), chances are rather high that the existing teams intend to stay until the end of the contracted period.

So, again, why would any team, manufacturer or client team alike, give up such a fundemental advantage?

(2) Additionally, even if the teams would consent, this unanimous vote would have to happen actually now (based on the 18 months I mentioned earlier) and I wonder why nobody in the press would not have heard anything about this by now. Or at least the intent to do so.

My personal opinion is that Marko is trying to pressure FIA to do something in order to give RBR a competitive PU.
And as there is much burned Earth between Renault and RBR, and Ferrari currently not having the best of PUs, this can only mean the Mercedes PU.

Preposterous?

-why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?

That was my initial thought, then later I thought-
Honda for obvious reasons. They continue the F1 association and save wads of cash and free up the engineers they say they need.

Mercedes probably would not mind, they are sitting on top swinging their feet. No prob. save money and look at the next engine.

Renault, have a revamped engine in the pipeline, which they expect to challenge Merc. If Merc do not move forward and they do I suspect they would be happy.

Right, Ferrari. I had to work on this. They are aiming for a static target which will not run away from them by the time they get there.

They have been catching up this year, and with another year or development should expect to be back near the front.

They will not possibly have a 'small team STR' go to Mercedes and be in front of them.

If all goes wrong, they have an excuse. Not our fault, they stopped us developing this superb engine we have on the computer. It also gives them resources to work on the next generation engine.

Thank you for the fine response.

I do not really concur re Mercedes and Renault.
Because if Merc becomes complacent and 2nd best, they get less money from Liberty, which means their revenue decreases, which will surely not help in the year to come.
Additionally, we all know that reducing your efforts may mean losing key members of your staff, perhaps not immediately, but in the 2nd and 3rd year.
And in case they really go for the swinging option in 2022, exactly this will hurt them in 2026 with the new PU formula, because we also know the bringing in new staff and honing them into a well oiled machine will again take some years.
(To my mind ~3 years / compare Brawn at the end of 2009 to MGP's first 'real' F1 win in China 2012)
And because of this, I do find this approach rather circumspect.

Re Renault, the Merc PU will undergo additional development in 2021 as well, and the new split turbo Renault PU will have to prove its worth first. Only in very ideal circumstances will the Renault PU be on par with the Merc PU at the beginning of 2021. Again compare Ferrari in 2017 and in 2014+2015+2016.

All in all, these are good points you made, but I still believe that no PU manufacturer will have the appetite to give up any advantage only because it is RBR.

[adrianjordan]

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze

Red Bull will withdraw both their works team and the AlphaTauri team from Formula 1 unless a freeze on engine development is introduced, according to a report by Auto Motor und Sport.




https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... veuPjNXo5g

Let them go.

If Williams can find a buyer, then I'm sure both RB teams can.

[etusch]

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze

Red Bull will withdraw both their works team and the AlphaTauri team from Formula 1 unless a freeze on engine development is introduced, according to a report by Auto Motor und Sport.




https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... veuPjNXo5g

Let them go.

If Williams can find a buyer, then I'm sure both RB teams can.

if they sell. but even in that condition it is a big warning for F1.

[DChemTech]

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze

Red Bull will withdraw both their works team and the AlphaTauri team from Formula 1 unless a freeze on engine development is introduced, according to a report by Auto Motor und Sport.




https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... veuPjNXo5g

Let them go.

If Williams can find a buyer, then I'm sure both RB teams can.

Let Ferrari go. They're the one typically threatening to leave when things don't go their way, they're the ones typically getting assistance and privileges, and often holding the sports hostage for their own benefit.

[diffuser]

This is massive if they do take over the Honda engine IP.

Apologies, but why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?
Thus handover a substantial advantage to RBR?

The FIA procedural approach to such a PU dev freeze is limited to two options for the 2022 season - and please correct me (gently ).

A. Change of rules due to safety reasons.
B. Change by all F1 Teams unanimously, but with an implementation lead time of 18 months (I vaguely recall that period).

(A) I can not see how this may be argued.

(B) Well ...
(1) I can see the development cost angle, but even Honda did not step out because of the actual costs for the F1 programme.
At least this was the consensus of the majority of this forum, inline to what Honda stated officially.

Ferrari will not limit itself due to what they lost last year (and they are the one constant in F1, so there is zero chance of them withdrawing from F1). Renault just saw what they are capable of and had their F1 programme revigorated by their management (Alpine!), and Mercedes with Hybrid Power is their current mainstream approach for their cars.
Additionally, all teams just signed the new 'Concorde Agreement' to 2026, if I recall correctly.

While there is an exit clause in this new agreement (Source: Marko), chances are rather high that the existing teams intend to stay until the end of the contracted period.

So, again, why would any team, manufacturer or client team alike, give up such a fundemental advantage?

(2) Additionally, even if the teams would consent, this unanimous vote would have to happen actually now (based on the 18 months I mentioned earlier) and I wonder why nobody in the press would not have heard anything about this by now. Or at least the intent to do so.

My personal opinion is that Marko is trying to pressure FIA to do something in order to give RBR a competitive PU.
And as there is much burned Earth between Renault and RBR, and Ferrari currently not having the best of PUs, this can only mean the Mercedes PU.

Preposterous?

-why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?

That was my initial thought, then later I thought-
Honda for obvious reasons. They continue the F1 association and save wads of cash and free up the engineers they say they need.

Mercedes probably would not mind, they are sitting on top swinging their feet. No prob. save money and look at the next engine.

Renault, have a revamped engine in the pipeline, which they expect to challenge Merc. If Merc do not move forward and they do I suspect they would be happy.

Right, Ferrari. I had to work on this. They are aiming for a static target which will not run away from them by the time they get there.

They have been catching up this year, and with another year or development should expect to be back near the front.

They will not possibly have a 'small team STR' go to Mercedes and be in front of them.

If all goes wrong, they have an excuse. Not our fault, they stopped us developing this superb engine we have on the computer. It also gives them resources to work on the next generation engine.

Pretty sure Ferrari are running the same PU they started the year with. They've looked better in power limited tracks of late. I think there is a 50% chance they will have caught up by the beginning of 2022. Nobody has been able to catch Merc in 7 years why do you think Ferrari will be after throwing away 2 years of development?

[Big Tea]

Pretty sure Ferrari are running the same PU they started the year with. They've looked better in power limited tracks of late. I think there is a 50% chance they will have caught up by the beginning of 2022. Nobody has been able to catch Merc in 7 years why do you think Ferrari will be after throwing away 2 years of development?

I would doubt Ferrari had only the one ' marginally legal' engine under development this year. The had to realise there was a good chance of being caught. Even if the engine was in a running state it would probably be on the machine.

It has taken longer than I thought to come through already. Then again, looking at LeClerc maybe the engine is not that far off, especially when you consider the car was designed around the expected performance this year.

I would be surprised if Ferrari are not 'thereabouts' by mid season next year at the latest. As I said though, if Merc are in this with them, they will move much of their effort to the new engine, knowing they have a buffer in place.
If no one agrees to the freeze, then probably Merc will put more into developing this engine, so even more of an effort needed for Ferari.

Also, how embarrassing would it be to them if Haas took up Renault and had good results?

[diffuser]

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze

Red Bull will withdraw both their works team and the AlphaTauri team from Formula 1 unless a freeze on engine development is introduced, according to a report by Auto Motor und Sport.




https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull- ... veuPjNXo5g

Let them go.

If Williams can find a buyer, then I'm sure both RB teams can.

if they sell. but even in that condition it is a big warning for F1.

What's the warning? That you can sell a team for half a billion dollars? What will they be worth in 5 years?

[diffuser]

Pretty sure Ferrari are running the same PU they started the year with. They've looked better in power limited tracks of late. I think there is a 50% chance they will have caught up by the beginning of 2022. Nobody has been able to catch Merc in 7 years why do you think Ferrari will be after throwing away 2 years of development?

I would doubt Ferrari had only the one ' marginally legal' engine under development this year. The had to realise there was a good chance of being caught. Even if the engine was in a running state it would probably be on the machine.

It has taken longer than I thought to come through already. Then again, looking at LeClerc maybe the engine is not that far off, especially when you consider the car was designed around the expected performance this year.

I would be surprised if Ferrari are not 'thereabouts' by mid season next year at the latest. As I said though, if Merc are in this with them, they will move much of their effort to the new engine, knowing they have a buffer in place.
If no one agrees to the freeze, then probably Merc will put more into developing this engine, so even more of an effort needed for Ferari.

Also, how embarrassing would it be to them if Haas took up Renault and had good results?

Think Imola has a long straight. We'll see how well they do. Although it does have a few slow corners.

They probably have a PU in development and they're running last year's PU with all the illegal boost taken out. I think they're pretty far back and catching up isn't gonna be easy.

If know they think they can catch Honda and pass them they'll sign. Otherwise, they'll hold out.

[godlameroso]

https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-ne ... -2021/amp/

Snatch him up.

As far as the power unit is concerned if every power unit manufacturer has a competitive power unit for 2021, freezing them save for reliability and cost savings, or for convergence like the old V8's would be acceptable.

Big question mark is Ferrari, they need a substantial turnaround.