New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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wesley123
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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gold333 wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:40 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:28 am
Simple. You don't get caught in the act, you are not cheating. Like it has been going on forever. Like Mercedes has done, like Ferrari has done and like many other teams have done and probably doing! No scope for what people FEELS.

FIA has never managed to catch extremely intelligent hacks. They are good for catching obvious ones or side with the ones who holds the power.
I love this. This person (an obvious Schumacher fan) has argued and argued that Schumachers car in 1994 couldn't have been cheating. Then he finally relents and comes out with his true character. Quote: "Simple. You don't get caught in the act, you are not cheating. "

This is what I mean. The depths hero worship can cause people to sink to.
It's true though, because the meaning of the word itself implies it comes with a consequence. The funny thing about it is very simple; if no one catches you out on it, it doesn't become part of the record, and by extent this means they never have cheated.

Doesn't mean they didn't break any rules though. Literally anything could have been illegal, but as long as they weren't caught doing it, it never becomes cheating.

Look at it this way; When you run a red light you run the risk of getting a ticket, but at the same time you also have a chance of not getting a ticket. If you don't get the ticket, per official records you never actually ran the red light, even though you did run the red light.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Just_a_fan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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wesley123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:23 pm
It's true though, because the meaning of the word itself implies it comes with a consequence. The funny thing about it is very simple; if no one catches you out on it, it doesn't become part of the record, and by extent this means they never have cheated.

Doesn't mean they didn't break any rules though. Literally anything could have been illegal, but as long as they weren't caught doing it, it never becomes cheating.

Look at it this way; When you run a red light you run the risk of getting a ticket, but at the same time you also have a chance of not getting a ticket. If you don't get the ticket, per official records you never actually ran the red light, even though you did run the red light.
Sorry, that just plain incorrect. If you cheat then you are a cheat. You don't need to be caught for actions to be cheating. If I take an answer sheet in to a test and ace the test without being caught, I've still cheated. If I run a red light without getting caught, I've still run the red light.

An illegal act is an illegal act. Being caught doesn't make it illegal: it's illegal because the rules define it as such. Any action contrary to the rules is an illegal act at the moment of its doing.

All of this "if you don't get caught then you didn't cheat" is just ex post facto fan justification. It's cheating, pure and simple.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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They all cheat. Even if it's simple things like stretching the RRA or timing for gaps between sensor readings. To fully optimize, you will inevitably be flagrantly abusing a loophole, no matter where you find it. Technically, that's cheating as well. Its simply justified by the (understandable) technical ignorance of the FIA, and their (understandable) inability to perfectly enforce the Formula.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:08 am
the (understandable) technical ignorance of the FIA, and their (understandable) inability to perfectly enforce the Formula.
Exactly. The more complicated a system is, the more ways there are to cheat and the harder it is to know and enforce the all of the rules. That's why there are some very rich tax consultants around the world helping very, very rich people to not pay tax. The consultants (F1 teams) know more about the rules than the authorities (FIA) do. 8)
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

notsofast
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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That's a good reason to simplify the rules. Only require what you can enforce.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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notsofast wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:25 pm
That's a good reason to simplify the rules. Only require what you can enforce.
I'm a huge fan of making the teams share data. That would self-enforce full compliance.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:56 pm
Sorry, that just plain incorrect. If you cheat then you are a cheat. You don't need to be caught for actions to be cheating. If I take an answer sheet in to a test and ace the test without being caught, I've still cheated. If I run a red light without getting caught, I've still run the red light.

An illegal act is an illegal act. Being caught doesn't make it illegal: it's illegal because the rules define it as such. Any action contrary to the rules is an illegal act at the moment of its doing.

All of this "if you don't get caught then you didn't cheat" is just ex post facto fan justification. It's cheating, pure and simple.
You can break all the rules that you want, until you are caught doing so you aren't cheating. Cheating requires a party to acknowledge that you broke the rules. And as long as you aren't caught you are just breaking the rules, and per official records everything you did was alright.

To get back to running the red light scenario. If you really did run the light, then why didn't you get a fine? That's right; because no one caught you doing it. So as far as official records go, you never ran this red light, because else you would have been fined.

As long as official records haven't concluded you have cheated, you haven't cheated.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Just_a_fan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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wesley123 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:56 pm
Sorry, that just plain incorrect. If you cheat then you are a cheat. You don't need to be caught for actions to be cheating. If I take an answer sheet in to a test and ace the test without being caught, I've still cheated. If I run a red light without getting caught, I've still run the red light.

An illegal act is an illegal act. Being caught doesn't make it illegal: it's illegal because the rules define it as such. Any action contrary to the rules is an illegal act at the moment of its doing.

All of this "if you don't get caught then you didn't cheat" is just ex post facto fan justification. It's cheating, pure and simple.
You can break all the rules that you want, until you are caught doing so you aren't cheating. Cheating requires a party to acknowledge that you broke the rules. And as long as you aren't caught you are just breaking the rules, and per official records everything you did was alright.

To get back to running the red light scenario. If you really did run the light, then why didn't you get a fine? That's right; because no one caught you doing it. So as far as official records go, you never ran this red light, because else you would have been fined.

As long as official records haven't concluded you have cheated, you haven't cheated.
Absolute tosh, I'm afraid. The act of cheating does not require a third party to find out.

Sadly, this attitude of "if you don't get caught..." is another nail in the coffin of a civilised society.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Totally agree with Just_a_fan on this one. If you are aware you arw doing something against the rules, you are cheating.
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strad
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Sadly, this attitude of "if you don't get caught..." is another nail in the coffin of a civilised society.
Dead nuts correct.
@wesley..Tell me if your wife has sex with all your male friends BUT you don't catch her in the act is she not still cheating on you? It would be okay with you if you found out a year later?
IF if give you the wrong change for a $20 tab but you don't spot it: Have I some how not cheated you?
The whole premise of you having to catch them is dead wrong.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

gshevlin
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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"It's not cheating unless you get caught" is, in ethical and legal terms, on a par with the infamous assertion "it's not illegal if the President does it" from the time of Watergate. Both of these rationalizations seek to minimize or eliminate the reality that people are engaging in malfeasance.
As far as the 1994 season goes...I have some thoughts.
1. Benetton's retention of the 1993 software for launch control in the 1994 software version, even thought it could not be legally used, makes perfect sense in software reliability engineering terms. You really don't want to remove code from a high-reliability software collection if you don't need to.
2. The ability to activate traction and launch control via a laptop or via the "special sequence" from the cockpit could have been used in testing by Michael Schumacher to understand how the car software maximized starts and corner exits, so that he could emulate the behavior to manually maximize starts and corner exits (whether that use of the software is legal is not clear to me, my guess is No). Schumacher was, as people have noted, very good at left foot braking, having done it from his start in F1, and was also very good at optimizing every aspect of his driving style. At one point he had a special speedo in the cockpit in testing just so that he could measure corner entry speed.
3. The fact that Benetton needed no less a person than George Carman QC in their corner during their late-season tussle with the FIA tells me that they were in severe danger of being banned for a lot more races or tossed from the championship entirely. The cumulative impact of the software issue, plus the refuelling rig change and subsequent fire, put Benetton in a very difficult position.
4. The championship ultimately came down to the final race, where Schumacher hit the wall, and then deliberately got in the way of Damon Hill. We know from Jerez in 1997 that Schumacher instinctively drove into people rather than accept being passed. Ditto Rascasse-gate, which was so blatant that the race organizers put him to the back of the field. Everybody with a functioning brain saw what he did there to prevent anybody setting a faster time.

I regard Schumacher's 1994 championship as suspect, not because of the Benetton shenanigans, but because Schumacher drove a rival off the track to win the title. This, to be fair to Schumacher, was the inevitable consequence of Ayrton Senna not being banned for driving Alain Prost off the track at Suzuka to win the 1991 title, which sent the message to other drivers that driving your rival off the circuit could get you a title if all else failed.
If Senna had been penalized and forfeited the 1991 championship, and damn the consequences, we might have seen a different outcome in 1994.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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gshevlin wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:18 pm
Ditto Rascasse-gate, which was so blatant that the race organizers put him to the back of the field. Everybody with a functioning brain saw what he did there to prevent anybody setting a faster time.

I regard Schumacher's 1994 championship as suspect, not because of the Benetton shenanigans, but because Schumacher drove a rival off the track to win the title. This, to be fair to Schumacher, was the inevitable consequence of Ayrton Senna not being banned for driving Alain Prost off the track at Suzuka to win the 1991 title, which sent the message to other drivers that driving your rival off the circuit could get you a title if all else failed.
If Senna had been penalized and forfeited the 1991 championship, and damn the consequences, we might have seen a different outcome in 1994.
Massa is on record saying that Schumacher later told him that he deliberately parked the car on that corner. So there isn't really an argument about that one.

As for Senna's move, it was in reaction to Prost's much more subtle turn in the year before that gave Prost the title. Prost was definitely helped by Balestre at the time - Senna wasn't the paranoid that some thought he was - so Senna just put his car in the way and the rest is history.

If you look at the 1990 move by Senna, today that would be claimed by many as Prost's error because Senna had a significant part of his car alongside as Prost turned in. :lol:

Both situations could have been dealt with better - if Senna hadn't been excluded by Balestre in 89, he wouldn't have done his 90 move and that would also have changed history. Whether it would have altered the outcome of 1994 is anyone's guess - I think Schumacher would always have done what he did irrespective of what may or may not have happened in 1989/1990. It was just his way.
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:56 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:23 pm
It's true though, because the meaning of the word itself implies it comes with a consequence. The funny thing about it is very simple; if no one catches you out on it, it doesn't become part of the record, and by extent this means they never have cheated.

Doesn't mean they didn't break any rules though. Literally anything could have been illegal, but as long as they weren't caught doing it, it never becomes cheating.

Look at it this way; When you run a red light you run the risk of getting a ticket, but at the same time you also have a chance of not getting a ticket. If you don't get the ticket, per official records you never actually ran the red light, even though you did run the red light.
Sorry, that just plain incorrect. If you cheat then you are a cheat. You don't need to be caught for actions to be cheating. If I take an answer sheet in to a test and ace the test without being caught, I've still cheated. If I run a red light without getting caught, I've still run the red light.

An illegal act is an illegal act. Being caught doesn't make it illegal: it's illegal because the rules define it as such. Any action contrary to the rules is an illegal act at the moment of its doing.

All of this "if you don't get caught then you didn't cheat" is just ex post facto fan justification. It's cheating, pure and simple.
Yeah it’s cheating, but everyone would cheat if they knew they could get away with it

Mercedes has probably cheated a lot in the hybrid era, the same way Ferrari might have done, etc

you don’t need to be caught to be cheating, but that in itself is meaningless. the FIA does need to find you cheating to prove you’re a cheater and this is what matters to the teams, not the moral and ethical judgement from outsiders

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:15 pm
wesley123 wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:44 pm
You can break all the rules that you want, until you are caught doing so you aren't cheating. Cheating requires a party to acknowledge that you broke the rules. And as long as you aren't caught you are just breaking the rules, and per official records everything you did was alright.

To get back to running the red light scenario. If you really did run the light, then why didn't you get a fine? That's right; because no one caught you doing it. So as far as official records go, you never ran this red light, because else you would have been fined.

As long as official records haven't concluded you have cheated, you haven't cheated.
Absolute tosh, I'm afraid. The act of cheating does not require a third party to find out.

Sadly, this attitude of "if you don't get caught..." is another nail in the coffin of a civilised society.
I was going to reply Wesley until I read your post. I can´t say it better so I simply upvoted yours.

Your last sentence is epic. People who think the motivation to do things correctly is just to avoid punishments or be considered a criminal/cheater should try to cultivate their empathy. What would they think if someone cheat on them but are not caught? I´m sure their speech would change drastically and then they´d start talking about ethics, etc.

The sentence treat others as you want to be treated would make world several orders of magnitude better if people will be able to follow. None would accept their rivals cheating no matter if they´re caught or not. But if it´s their favourite team/driver it´s ok while they´re not caught? #-o That´s promoting cheating, hey you can cheat but you must be smart enough to not get caught. What an awful world if that´s our motivation ](*,)

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Although Benetton were caught cheating in 1994, the fuel flow in refuelling , running the car too low with the plank and ignoring the rules at Silverstone. So Benetton were cheating, they were caught, they are cheaters.
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