Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Blackout
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:18 am
mzso wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:49 am
FDD wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:56 pm

There is nothing strange here, they'll present the new engine at the very beginning of 2022, with no possibilities of development through the next 3 years starting from 2022.
Well, that would mean Ferrari would need to get everything right on first try with a radical re-design, which is impossible...
But if there's a freeze for 2022, it means no new PU spec that years. Nowhere was it claimed that they will get on more upgrade in 2022.
All manufactures will have a chance to introduce a new engine for the first race of 22, including Honda

These engines will have to be tuned to run the new E10 fuel (10% ethanol)

I very much doubt Ferrari, or any other team will try anything to radical
Well Renault (and Ferrari according to Nunges who isnt trustworthy) are planning a radical change for 2022 for a while, and they have 1 year, more or less, to prepare that change.

mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:18 am
All manufactures will have a chance to introduce a new engine for the first race of 22, including Honda
Source?

the EDGE
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:03 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:18 am
All manufactures will have a chance to introduce a new engine for the first race of 22, including Honda
Source?
Teams have already developed new power units for this season, they can produce new designs again for 2022, which they will then have to use until F1’s next generation of engines arrives in 2025.
https://www.racefans.net/2021/02/12/wil ... ning-edge/

It means manufacturers will still have the opportunity to update their engines for new, increased-percentage synthetic fuels for 2022, while Red Bull gets its wish for development to be frozen sooner than planned.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-to-in ... -for-2022/

FIA engine boss Gilles Simon is optimistic that this step will not be necessary at all, because everything will be done by itself: "From what we know about the engines, we expect the engines to be in a very narrow power range in 2022. Don't forget that we still have two chances that the engines will adjust in a natural way. This and next year. As of today, we do not believe that we have to intervene from outside to harmonize performance."
By the way, the status of the drive unit from the beginning of the 2022 season will be frozen. This is a 2021 engine adapted to E10 fuel. Honda has promised Red Bull to develop the engine for the 2022 regulations.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... hung-2022/

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:28 pm
The size depends on the design.
If it spins faster you can make it smaller. So check those calculations.

At fifty thousand rpms, the blower might be less than a third of that size.

The twin screw is inherently more efficient because the compression happens inside the screw not outside it.
Centrifugal compressors also compress "internally". Best efficiency for twin screw compressors is similar to centrifugal at about 80% and drops off as you move away from the designed pressure ratio. Centrifugal compressors produce best efficiency over a wider range of pressure ratios but have a narrower range of efficient flow rates compared to twin-screw.
https://www.plantservices.com/assets/Me ... lowers.pdf
je suis charlie

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Don't know if you should make anything out of this but in a Finnish Twitch interview Mika Salo said the following about Ferrari's engine saga:
Salo: "They [Alfa] suffered from Ferrari's cheat last year because they had Ferrari motors and could use less gas, so I think Alfa would be pretty good this year when they get their full power."

Interviewer: "So Ferrari's getting out a new engine, right?"

Salo: "I dunno if it's a new engine but they're allowed to use it to its full power. Having to use less gas was their punishment for their cheating last year"
Video and translation from here.

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hUirEYExbN
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:29 pm
Don't know if you should make anything out of this but in a Finnish Twitch interview Mika Salo said the following about Ferrari's engine saga:
Salo: "They [Alfa] suffered from Ferrari's cheat last year because they had Ferrari motors and could use less gas, so I think Alfa would be pretty good this year when they get their full power."

Interviewer: "So Ferrari's getting out a new engine, right?"

Salo: "I dunno if it's a new engine but they're allowed to use it to its full power. Having to use less gas was their punishment for their cheating last year"
Video and translation from here.
That sounds like they can use their trick. That can't be right?

LM10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hUirEYExbN wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:59 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:29 pm
Don't know if you should make anything out of this but in a Finnish Twitch interview Mika Salo said the following about Ferrari's engine saga:
Salo: "They [Alfa] suffered from Ferrari's cheat last year because they had Ferrari motors and could use less gas, so I think Alfa would be pretty good this year when they get their full power."

Interviewer: "So Ferrari's getting out a new engine, right?"

Salo: "I dunno if it's a new engine but they're allowed to use it to its full power. Having to use less gas was their punishment for their cheating last year"
Video and translation from here.
That sounds like they can use their trick. That can't be right?
It doesn't sound like that to me.

bonjon1979
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Might it be that Ferrari were caught cheating by the FIA but it was really too late to make big changes to the engine they'd designed for 2020. In truth, the first batch of engines would've been built by the time the FIA made their 'deal' with Ferrari the december before last. They couldn't let Ferrari run that illegal engine at full chat so to bring them back and penalise them made them lower the fuel flow as a means of equalisation. This year, Ferrari has been able to redesign their engine so it's inside the rules and will be allowed full fuel flow again. Apologies for the speculation but without a full and frank admission from the FIA we're left with little else to go on!

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jumpingfish
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Something absurd. If in 2020 Ferrari was obliged to use less gasoline, then for what was the second fuel consumption sensor introduced? after all, it was the additional sensor that was supposed to control the flow.

Surely Salo meant something else.

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Schippke
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I won't say much on Salo's comments; Despite him racing for Ferrari in the past, I find it very hard to believe he'd have access to that sort of inside information...

In saying that... the theory itself may not be as farfetched as one might think; Keep in mind that Ferrari and the FIA came to some form of agreement/s, the details of which can be described as... highly guarded. Who knows, maybe they were forced to run with even more restrictions on the power unit due to the short turn around ahead of the season, to satisfy the Technical Directives imposed by the FIA from late 2019-2020 season start. But again, this is just pure speculation.

I think it was more of a case that whatever Ferrari was up to, and after explaining to the FIA how they were doing it, required them to make chances in a very short amount of time to ensure the power unit complied to the updated technical directives... so naturally performance was going to suffer with such a turnaround. So they just had to bite their tongue, live with the pain and hope they can make up some performance back for 2021 and beyond.

One would have to think they're quietly confident they've clawed back a decent chunk of performance, since they were quite keen to agree on the engine freeze in time for the 2022 regulations...

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:15 pm
Something absurd. If in 2020 Ferrari was obliged to use less gasoline, then for what was the second fuel consumption sensor introduced? after all, it was the additional sensor that was supposed to control the flow.

Surely Salo meant something else.
It is a FFS 'fuel flow sensor'. it senses the fuel flow and of course measures it. it does not control the flow of fuel.

BRM-81
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:29 pm
Don't know if you should make anything out of this but in a Finnish Twitch interview Mika Salo said the following about Ferrari's engine saga:
Salo: "They [Alfa] suffered from Ferrari's cheat last year because they had Ferrari motors and could use less gas, so I think Alfa would be pretty good this year when they get their full power."

Interviewer: "So Ferrari's getting out a new engine, right?"

Salo: "I dunno if it's a new engine but they're allowed to use it to its full power. Having to use less gas was their punishment for their cheating last year"
Video and translation from here.
The previous translation of Salo´s interview linked here isn´t very exact, here´s the discussed part more word by word, from Finnish to English:

Discussion before the Ferrari PU comments is about Kimi´s situation in Alfa. Kristian Sohlberg mentions Kimi´s known good abilities to help the team to develop the car within the season. Salo then shares some opinion why last season was what is was for Alfa:

-----------------------
M.S.: "They [Alfa] suffered from Ferrari's cheat last year because they had Ferrari motors, and were allowed to use less gas, so I think Alfa would be pretty good this year when they get the full power from there."

K.S.: "So Ferrari's getting out a new engine, right?"

M.S.: "I dunno if it's a new engine but they're allowed to take the full power out again from there, what they couldn´t do because of the fraud.. , They were allowed to use less gas compared to the previous years.”

K.S.: “Oh, there were that kind of punishment, it was that some deal..”

M.S.: “It was the punishment for that some screw up that they had done on previous year "

----------------------

On Salo´s second comment, He uses word "uudestaan", "again", which is missing from the previous translation. But is it really meaning that the "trick" could be used again as is, or something else, one can not tell. Could also just mean, that Ferrari powered teams can again use the full amount of gasoline, to get the full power out.
Last edited by BRM-81 on Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:39 am, edited 4 times in total.

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RZS10
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Schippke wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:39 pm
I won't say much on Salo's comments; Despite him racing for Ferrari in the past, I find it very hard to believe he'd have access to that sort of inside information...
Exactly, and even if (and that's a big IF) he had access to the details of the agreement, i highly doubt he would disclose details in such a manner considering that afaik he's still on the list of FIA stewards and would potentially even make himself open to lawsuits.

Isn't it more likely that this is his own interpretation based on the very limited information that is available?

And technically it's a very short and simplified version of what supposedly happened: they exceeded the fuel flow, had to lower the fuel flow thus ran the engine in a non-optimal way and are now back to fully utilising it sans trickery.

Joshuadbn
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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He said, “The team has suffered from the wrongdoing of Ferrari in 2019. They have been forced to use less fuel, so Alfa Romeo may be in a good position if they can perform at their best in the race this season.”

He thinks Alfa Romeo could perform to their full potential. He said, “I do not know if they will have a new engine for 2021. But at least, Alfa Romeo will allow them to get all the power. They were not allowed last year because of Ferrari.”

These words can be taken at full face value as Salo was an FIA commissioner in 2020. He is also a close friend of fellow Kimi Raikkonen and will be privy to such information.

Red Bull took the lead and filed a formal complaint regarding the legality of Ferrari’s power unit. After an extensive investigation was conducted by FIA, it concluded that Ferrari’s power unit was neither legal nor illegal.

This was from Essential Sports page

basti313
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:12 pm
Schippke wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:39 pm
I won't say much on Salo's comments; Despite him racing for Ferrari in the past, I find it very hard to believe he'd have access to that sort of inside information...
Exactly, and even if (and that's a big IF) he had access to the details of the agreement, i highly doubt he would disclose details in such a manner considering that afaik he's still on the list of FIA stewards and would potentially even make himself open to lawsuits.

Isn't it more likely that this is his own interpretation based on the very limited information that is available?

And technically it's a very short and simplified version of what supposedly happened: they exceeded the fuel flow, had to lower the fuel flow thus ran the engine in a non-optimal way and are now back to fully utilising it sans trickery.
I do not think that this is the point. If they tricked the fuel system, this was an extremely precise trick. There is no reason why such a precise system would give them less fuel if they tune it to normal behavior.

I am more puzzled now by the symmetry. If I think back to 2019 how Ferrari passed other cars or could defend on the straight was quite similar to how cars passed Ferrari in 2020.
Furthermore Alfa and Haas gained, but was not directly to punish...

So my interpretation is a hidden penalty. The FIA found out, that Ferrari is using like 3% more fuel flow. So they restricted Ferrari engines by 3% in 2020.