2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:37 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:29 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:58 pm

At worst, they are the second best engineering team in the sport as proven over the last seven years. They will not have made a hideous mistake in design, with so few changes in car evolution from 2020 and all the previous seasons of these steady regs to fall back on. So therefore logically their design just isn't as easily compatible with the enforced changes, they had nowhere to go with development, or they haven't shown their true hand yet.
There are four simple points why it has to do nothing with design:
- Merc never used low fuel loads in testing for the last...6 years. The car was full as usual. That it does not look as good as an empty Bull, McLaren, Torro is no miracle.
- They did not show the full aero package in testing for the last ....4 years. There is no reason to have all final parts on the car now.
- The cooling issues relate to a too tight bodywork, that was more targetted to cooler races. I think that is a wise approach, run the car a bit lower powered but learn more about relevant aero for Europe.
- It takes three weeks to copy the diffusor from McLaren. So even if they have a bit too less downforce at the rear end now, they will regain some until Imola.

The only reason why you could argue that the rear is not good is that Hamilton did some Vettel with loosing the rear under breaking. Their style is quite similar, so no losing rear end stability hurts. But as above...there is certainly something still to come in rear end aero.
Exactly. I'd be very surprised if there were a design 'error'. Only thing I can see is if they were just finding it incredibly difficult to marry the unchangeable fundamentals of their car to the new regs.
To say that error is probably not true but they choosed a concept and it seems not working as good as others's... Not only Merc themself but Aston Martin also had issues. They are almost same cars. Further more Aston Martin had engine issues too. Maybe they are as good as fight for wins but not with big margin any more. When it get hotter, which is well expected during summer, they may be out of first 3.
The other part of it, even if Ham is leading or trying to gain position during race, he cannot drive faultless and this will hurt much. No need to talk about Bottas and shrinkage at strategic options

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:50 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:37 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:29 pm

There are four simple points why it has to do nothing with design:
- Merc never used low fuel loads in testing for the last...6 years. The car was full as usual. That it does not look as good as an empty Bull, McLaren, Torro is no miracle.
- They did not show the full aero package in testing for the last ....4 years. There is no reason to have all final parts on the car now.
- The cooling issues relate to a too tight bodywork, that was more targetted to cooler races. I think that is a wise approach, run the car a bit lower powered but learn more about relevant aero for Europe.
- It takes three weeks to copy the diffusor from McLaren. So even if they have a bit too less downforce at the rear end now, they will regain some until Imola.

The only reason why you could argue that the rear is not good is that Hamilton did some Vettel with loosing the rear under breaking. Their style is quite similar, so no losing rear end stability hurts. But as above...there is certainly something still to come in rear end aero.
Exactly. I'd be very surprised if there were a design 'error'. Only thing I can see is if they were just finding it incredibly difficult to marry the unchangeable fundamentals of their car to the new regs.
To say that error is probably not true but they choosed a concept and it seems not working as good as others's... Not only Merc themself but Aston Martin also had issues. They are almost same cars. Further more Aston Martin had engine issues too. Maybe they are as good as fight for wins but not with big margin any more. When it get hotter, which is well expected during summer, they may be out of first 3.
The other part of it, even if Ham is leading or trying to gain position during race, he cannot drive faultless and this will hurt much. No need to talk about Bottas and shrinkage at strategic options
The concept was chosen years ago and served them very well, rather than something new this season. This is an unexpected extra year of the regulations with an unexpected rule change, possibly with the intention of bringing them back into the pack, during which their hands were somewhat tied over what they could change on the car to get round it. It's really not so simple to say the concept doesn't work very well. You could say it's not as easily adapatable to the new rules as some other cars, given the constraints in place this winter.

This is all assuming they don't have anything still to come on the car for the first race, of course. If there's a final jigsaw piece to be dropped in, it could snap everything else into place around it.

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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:00 am
etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:50 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:37 pm


Exactly. I'd be very surprised if there were a design 'error'. Only thing I can see is if they were just finding it incredibly difficult to marry the unchangeable fundamentals of their car to the new regs.
To say that error is probably not true but they choosed a concept and it seems not working as good as others's... Not only Merc themself but Aston Martin also had issues. They are almost same cars. Further more Aston Martin had engine issues too. Maybe they are as good as fight for wins but not with big margin any more. When it get hotter, which is well expected during summer, they may be out of first 3.
The other part of it, even if Ham is leading or trying to gain position during race, he cannot drive faultless and this will hurt much. No need to talk about Bottas and shrinkage at strategic options
The concept was chosen years ago and served them very well, rather than something new this season. This is an unexpected extra year of the regulations with an unexpected rule change, possibly with the intention of bringing them back into the pack, during which their hands were somewhat tied over what they could change on the car to get round it. It's really not so simple to say the concept doesn't work very well. You could say it's not as easily adapatable to the new rules as some other cars, given the constraints in place this winter.

This is all assuming they don't have anything still to come on the car for the first race, of course. If there's a final jigsaw piece to be dropped in, it could snap everything else into place around it.
Not only this. It also assumes that they really have an issue, which is nowhere visible so far. What we saw is a good pace with a turned down car, heavy fuel load and just a little bit loose rear....so what?

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fritticaldi
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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Incredibly the Merc designers and technical staff managed to produce a car that is struggling with the new tyres and lesser downforce. The other teams benefitted the most from these changes. The Brackley based team will need to rectify this situation. They have the know how and means to do it. Hamilton has confirmed the Red Bulls have the race pace to be serious contenders .

OO7
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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fritticaldi wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:44 am
Incredibly the Merc designers and technical staff managed to produce a car that is struggling with the new tyres and lesser downforce. The other teams benefitted the most from these changes. The Brackley based team will need to rectify this situation. They have the know how and means to do it. Hamilton has confirmed the Red Bulls have the race pace to be serious contenders .
Apparently they have achieved there downforce goals and D/F isn't the issue.

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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Except according to some here the great sir Hamilton the eighth (almost) is wrong. A new car will arise out of the dust settling from all the exploding sandbags and contenders there can, nay, shall be not.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:57 am
Except according to some here the great sir Hamilton the eighth (almost) is wrong. A new car will arise out of the dust settling from all the exploding sandbags and contenders there can, nay, shall be not.
Would that be Sir Lewis "Bono, my tyres are shot" Hamilton? That guy? :wink:

Whichever way it goes, we'll know soon enough. =D>
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:15 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:00 am
etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:50 pm

To say that error is probably not true but they choosed a concept and it seems not working as good as others's... Not only Merc themself but Aston Martin also had issues. They are almost same cars. Further more Aston Martin had engine issues too. Maybe they are as good as fight for wins but not with big margin any more. When it get hotter, which is well expected during summer, they may be out of first 3.
The other part of it, even if Ham is leading or trying to gain position during race, he cannot drive faultless and this will hurt much. No need to talk about Bottas and shrinkage at strategic options
The concept was chosen years ago and served them very well, rather than something new this season. This is an unexpected extra year of the regulations with an unexpected rule change, possibly with the intention of bringing them back into the pack, during which their hands were somewhat tied over what they could change on the car to get round it. It's really not so simple to say the concept doesn't work very well. You could say it's not as easily adapatable to the new rules as some other cars, given the constraints in place this winter.

This is all assuming they don't have anything still to come on the car for the first race, of course. If there's a final jigsaw piece to be dropped in, it could snap everything else into place around it.
Not only this. It also assumes that they really have an issue, which is nowhere visible so far. What we saw is a good pace with a turned down car, heavy fuel load and just a little bit loose rear....so what?
I think the other way.

It looks heavy and turned UP. I think they hid the high power modes under 100 litres of fuel weight. That would explain 99% of the issues I observed from the testing.

The other 1% is why it seemed Lewis was drifting on purpose at times. Kick out at odd places that didn't seem under extreme load at all.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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Guys Mercedes is a rocket-ship. Just a couple tweaks to unlock the swag.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

nfa
nfa
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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A closer look at lap times and speed trap figures using the data compiled by Oehrly (Thank you!)

Data points include all laps from all three days (all drivers, compounds, etc.)
I'm seeing three major groupings:
1. upper group with higher speeds, I believe are lower downforce runs and/or higher power engine modes.
2. middle group with speeds 305-315 and faster times would be a medium downforce run (majority, over 90%, were set on the 3rd lap of a stint), with no points observed on the 7th or higher lap of a stint (suggests lower fuel/quali runs)
3. large grouping with slower times and lower speeds were primarily set on stints with 7 or more laps suggesting higher fuel loads/lower engine settings
Image


Data compiled by Oehrly
... =551258756

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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At this picture I see that a man kicks other guy's head. But if you want to give point to beaten guy, you need to say that he hit with his head to rivals foot. :lol:

Image

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Stu
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:13 am
Guys Mercedes is a rocket-ship. Just a couple tweaks to unlock the swag.
I think so too.
Token spend suggestions?
I seem to recall mention being made of pedal adjustments being required. If this is so it suggests modification has been made to either the tub or driver position (why else would a driver ask for the pedal position in a year-old design to be altered? - yes, the drivers are swapped around, but the level of detail that these guys are working to makes it difficult to imagine that they don’t have both driver’s pedal positions nailed down); it would also make sense that the tub front has been altered as all of the ‘gubbins’ from DAS will have been removed, they struggled to get George in the car when he subbed for Lewis and the front suspension looks to be mounted differently.
I think that is two tokens spent???

Either way, I expect them to be right at the sharp end when it all kicks off!!
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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etusch wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:40 am
At this picture I see that a man kicks other guy's head. But if you want to give point to beaten guy, you need to say that he hit with his head to rivals foot. :lol:

https://i.ibb.co/mvsR21R/1200px-Lethwei-Hight-kick.jpg
Both interpretations are correct, of course. It's all down to your frame of reference. 8)
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Jambier
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:30 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:17 pm
Also, Hamilton said he wasn't keen on the steering - said it was too light / over assisted. Although I think that was just a general observation about the car.
Ate least that should be something that's easy to fix.

It might not even need to be fixed, as it could be one of the things the team has set up differently when they are running 2 cars.
And they have a filming day before the race, and there were only 3 days of testing.

I expect a different situation at BAR race weekend, and a lot of running in all the FP :mrgreen:
Then, the second race will be much different as well.

At least those 3 days may give us some spectacular 2 or 3 first races :mrgreen:

KiLLu12258
KiLLu12258
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Re: 2021 Pre-season testing. Bahrain 12-14 March

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etusch wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:50 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:37 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:29 pm

There are four simple points why it has to do nothing with design:
- Merc never used low fuel loads in testing for the last...6 years. The car was full as usual. That it does not look as good as an empty Bull, McLaren, Torro is no miracle.
- They did not show the full aero package in testing for the last ....4 years. There is no reason to have all final parts on the car now.
- The cooling issues relate to a too tight bodywork, that was more targetted to cooler races. I think that is a wise approach, run the car a bit lower powered but learn more about relevant aero for Europe.
- It takes three weeks to copy the diffusor from McLaren. So even if they have a bit too less downforce at the rear end now, they will regain some until Imola.

The only reason why you could argue that the rear is not good is that Hamilton did some Vettel with loosing the rear under breaking. Their style is quite similar, so no losing rear end stability hurts. But as above...there is certainly something still to come in rear end aero.
Exactly. I'd be very surprised if there were a design 'error'. Only thing I can see is if they were just finding it incredibly difficult to marry the unchangeable fundamentals of their car to the new regs.
To say that error is probably not true but they choosed a concept and it seems not working as good as others's... Not only Merc themself but Aston Martin also had issues. They are almost same cars. Further more Aston Martin had engine issues too. Maybe they are as good as fight for wins but not with big margin any more. When it get hotter, which is well expected during summer, they may be out of first 3.
The other part of it, even if Ham is leading or trying to gain position during race, he cannot drive faultless and this will hurt much. No need to talk about Bottas and shrinkage at strategic options
you are just too excited for the test results "looking" bad for mercedes.

and after the first 3 races i see you crying here that mercedes is too strong again.
2 years ago everyone thought ferrari will be unbeatable after testing? And what happend?

I bet that if testing were in spain again the results were very different. Also hamilton saying redbull is stronger right now means not too much.
Hell guys, is this your first season?