2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Zynerji
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Quick question on the current regs.

Is it illegal to use the air system from the pneumatic valves to actively flush the prechamber?

Dr. Acula
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:11 pm
Quick question on the current regs.

Is it illegal to use the air system from the pneumatic valves to actively flush the prechamber?
I would say, yes it is.
Though the pneumatic valve system isn't specifically mentioned, i think it would violate this rule.
5.14.1 With the exception of incidental leakage through joints or cooling ducts in the inlet system (either into or out of the system), all air entering the engine must enter the bodywork through a maximum of two inlets which are located:

a. Between the front of the cockpit entry template and a point 500mm forward of the rear wheel centre line longitudinally.
b. No less than 200mm above the reference plane vertically.
c. On vertical cross-sections parallel to C-C. Furthermore, any such inlets must be visible in their entirety when viewed from the front of the car without the driver seated in the car and with the secondary roll structure and associated fairing removed (see Article 15.2.6).

5.14.2 The addition of any substance other than fuel, as described in Article 5.10.3, into the air destined for combustion is forbidden. Exhaust gas recirculation is forbidden.
Last edited by Dr. Acula on Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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If the pneumatic valve air was taken from the plenum, post turbo, it could technically be compressed and used for valve springs, then purged into the combustion chamber, through the prechamber, during the exhaust stroke (obviously not combustion air then). Also, it could still be considered the same combustion air that entered through the proper method, it just takes a different route to get into the chamber.

I think it could be a thing...🤔 Unless it specifically states that all combustion air must enter through the intake valve...

hurril
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:11 pm
If the pneumatic valve air was taken from the plenum, post turbo, it could technically be compressed and used for valve springs, then purged into the combustion chamber, through the prechamber, during the exhaust stroke (obviously not combustion air then). Also, it could still be considered the same combustion air that entered through the proper method, it just takes a different route to get into the chamber.

I think it could be a thing...🤔 Unless it specifically states that all combustion air must enter through the intake valve...
I think it says something like that. And that there are only ever four valves, so whatever that is entering the pre-chamber, it won't work.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hurril wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:26 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:11 pm
If the pneumatic valve air was taken from the plenum, post turbo, it could technically be compressed and used for valve springs, then purged into the combustion chamber, through the prechamber, during the exhaust stroke (obviously not combustion air then). Also, it could still be considered the same combustion air that entered through the proper method, it just takes a different route to get into the chamber.

I think it could be a thing...🤔 Unless it specifically states that all combustion air must enter through the intake valve...
I think it says something like that. And that there are only ever four valves, so whatever that is entering the pre-chamber, it won't work.
It would interesting to find a hard answer. Even the injectors already run 2 fuel inlets (high-temp + low-temp) so they can mix for best fuel temp in the chamber. Why not add a third and push air through it as well? Its not busy injecting fuel during the exhaust stroke..

Singabule
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hurril wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:26 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:11 pm
If the pneumatic valve air was taken from the plenum, post turbo, it could technically be compressed and used for valve springs, then purged into the combustion chamber, through the prechamber, during the exhaust stroke (obviously not combustion air then). Also, it could still be considered the same combustion air that entered through the proper method, it just takes a different route to get into the chamber.

I think it could be a thing...🤔 Unless it specifically states that all combustion air must enter through the intake valve...
I think it says something like that. And that there are only ever four valves, so whatever that is entering the pre-chamber, it won't work.
They could bleed the valve into precamber, so prechamber will shut the last compared to the cylinder. This would mitigate soot build up inside prechamber. The most tricky is how to use single injector for both cylinder and prechamber, so I still believe they design 2 injector into one, with completely separate timing and volume to create workaround from the regulations.

Singabule
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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There are several mistery arround these engine, and I think of probable answer for each issue:
1. The prechamber inlet valve. By the regulations, engine should have 4 valves. So you can use one of intake valve as part of prechamber itself, so it may thicker compared to the another one to create sideway sealing needed to seal the prechamber. So the prechamber would be letter L and become I when the valve shut. Due to temperature constraints on prechamber, it could be controlled by sodium filled valve.
2. The injector. It is placed on exhaust side with 2 different side of opening, a few hole, and 2 separate function, one the main chamber, one the prechamber,ans build into one casing as per regulation says. There could be a few injections per cycle, but the target would not to build evenly AF mixture, but to create pocket of air beside the cylinder wall so there would be minimum heat loss. The challenge would be too rich (remember Honda 17 issue, why produce fewer HP than its predecessor).
3. The tubling effects/swirl. The current generation of engine need the least disturbance and swirl as possible, so contrary to the diesel engine for the reason I state in number 2.
4. The cylinder deactivation and ALS. This is very pronounced in honda compared to others, as solutions of electricity deficiency issue. This would sacrifice fuel but could maintain the turbo keep spooling without wastegating, partial open into butterfly or individual cylinder valve, or any strategy and trick into braking and cornering. The idea is to reduce pumping loss as low as possible and the sampe time to create positive pressure on the exhaust. Also this strategy may help the exhaust from taking the abuse from temperature differential if only relying on cold blowing.

gruntguru
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I think its good to throw ideas around but you are probably overthinking this.
1. Do some research on Mahle TJI and you will see that pre-chamber flushing is not required or beneficial.
2. A high pressure direct injection nozzle is a very sophisticated piece of cutting edge technology. It is unlikely that the extra complexity you are suggesting would be undertaken - especially considering there are much simpler ways to meet the requirement. viewtopic.php?p=849364#p849364
3. Tumble/swirl. Depends on the degree of main-chamber stratification required. Remember the rich PC, lean MC is already a rich/lean burn system. I would imagine some swirl might be useful if some degree of radial stratification was desired. If no MC stratification is desired, tumble and or swirl would be useful to homogenise the MC charge.
je suis charlie

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Bandit1216
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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About pneumatic valve "springs' fed by the turbo; Aren't we missing the fact that it's actually nitrogen at 250 psi orso. "only" 3 bar of turbo pressure would make the piston of the valve spring way too big. Bigger then the bore of the engine.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Has there been any thoughts about how the power output can be influenced without changing the engine maps. Could it be possible to use some sensor input to “detect” conditions were a flying lap is started or the first lap of the race.

Changing maps is not allowed, but when such characteristics are built inside a mapping, it is allowed.

flmkane
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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joseff wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:35 am
Okay, how about autogyro's idea but with mechanical coupling?
So you have the turbine on the exhaust side, then a propshaft going through the engine, probably through the crankcase. The compressor is then on the intake side.
The intercooler goes on top and fed by the usual roll hoop ram intake

Benefits:
- shorter exhaust manifold
- shorter intake path
- vertical cylinders (better in terms of wear?)
- smaller footprint like a 2.4 V8
This guy back in 2010.He was a goddamn genius. Isn't that what Merc did to an extent?

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aleks_ader
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 1:57 pm
Has there been any thoughts about how the power output can be influenced without changing the engine maps. Could it be possible to use some sensor input to “detect” conditions were a flying lap is started or the first lap of the race.

Changing maps is not allowed, but when such characteristics are built inside a mapping, it is allowed.
Hmm i really like your train of thoughts. Some sortish sub branching in mapping. Mann. i guess small "mini Ai" algorithms are at play also. At least in driver in loop simulations i would think.

I guess hybrid system nowadays makes job for FIA that almost impossible. How you are are gona to catch on such acts of indecency. How they dare to fool us. :D Anyway. Also would be perfectly legal. I trough those years in interviews from Allison, @amazingWazzariSan, Cowell and even Marmorini, Binotto got the impression that those v6 PUs nowadays act much more at its own accords constantly. SYSTEM that acts from local moment and adjust to the best overall lap time (lets say overall maximums) that is predicted and simulated beforehand. So from corner to corner from ENTRY, MID, EXIT independently from previous lap even. That variations are unavoidable because it depends on witch session/part of race is on atm, fuel always goes down, traction starts braking (tire deg, conditions of surface), derating of components, air condition changes (even dirty hot air). Soyeah its quite a feed and complex engineering. Juggling at minimum 6 separate PU entities at its owns brings huge mapping problem. Don't to mention that drivers wants consistency from corner to corner, lap after lap.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

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aleks_ader
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Re: Formula One 1.6l turbo engine formula as of 2013

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flmkane wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:31 am
joseff wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:35 am
Okay, how about autogyro's idea but with mechanical coupling?
So you have the turbine on the exhaust side, then a propshaft going through the engine, probably through the crankcase. The compressor is then on the intake side.
The intercooler goes on top and fed by the usual roll hoop ram intake

Benefits:
- shorter exhaust manifold
- shorter intake path
- vertical cylinders (better in terms of wear?)
- smaller footprint like a 2.4 V8
This guy back in 2010.He was a goddamn genius. Isn't that what Merc did to an extent?
Heh i remember sketches of one guy who drew that, Or was even him. Yeah in concept Merc did exactly that. Maybe he is now Merc engineer or some other Merc engineer got idea from him HAHA. I guess he needs some pile of cash on its account for that domination. heh
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna