2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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MKlaus wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:53 pm
masi's statement is going to end this endless debate now? race director and stewards were consistent in allowing excursions on t4 and issue no warning to anyone. lewis did it and so many other drivers.
max didn't do it because he didn't pay attention in the drivers' briefing. ***

it's just mercedes policing themselves and asking their driver to stop the excursions, leading people to jump to the conclusion that stewards changed their stance and issued warning, which is not true.

the only rule then remained was an overtake without making the corner clean, leading to lasting advantage, which requires the driver overtaking to relegate the position. that was the only rule applicable. fair enough.

some people here believe, before max went off, he was ahead of lewis. the problem is, he carried too much speed due to which he couldn't make the corner clean. it was that same extra speed that allowed him to get ahead of lewis, but forced him to go off track. so technically, to make the t4 clean, he should have taken slightly less speed and if he would have done that, he wouldn't have gotten ahead of lewis.
*** That isn't correct. It was Horner who ordered Perez and Max (pre race) to stay within the lines, as it was punishable because they would take advantage of it in terms of lap time and it would be penalized.


Steward Pirro: 'Hamilton was warned about repeated advantage'

Emmanuele Pirro (steward) explains to Corriere dello Sport how things went behind the scenes.

"Michael Masi had warned the teams: all excursions at Turn 4 will be reported to the stewards if they bring a repeated or lasting advantage."

"Hamilton started doing this [off-track driving] a few times too often, repeatedly gaining advantage."
"Masi, who is the only person allowed to talk to the teams, called Mercedes and warned them: if it continues like this, they will get the black and white flag, which is a warning that precedes a possible penalty."

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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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langedweil wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:56 pm
I truly do not understand your beef .. but I'll shove it under a sign of the times thing.
No matter what Masi says, 27.3 sets the boundaries .. policing or not, that's just the written sporting regulations. Anything else is just opinion; which is fine, but no more than that.
I think the point is that the race director and the stewards make the call. In other words they get the discretion to determine what does and doesn't need to be enforced.

For example, have you ever been pulled over for going 1 MPH over the speed limit? I'm going to bet not, because even though you are breaking the law it's not deemed to be significant/relevant!
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mzso
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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astracrazy wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:47 am
lh13 wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:41 am
According to Helmut Marko, Max wasn't using full power as a precaution because of the problem with diff. So it remains to be seen if RedBull and Mercedes are actually close or does RedBull have more in hand.
At that point I lost interest.
Why? Because he's frank to often?

mzso
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:45 am
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:49 am
maxxer wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:43 am


True they said this during Qually that in those sessions you would lose your times but during the race they wouldnt unless gaining an advantage in position
That's true, but that's also the problem: the stewards should not be saying that to begin with. They should tell the drivers to stay between the lines, every corner, and not selectively allow digressions in some corners but not in others. Changing the rules during the race made it even worse, but whether you can cross some line should not be a question in the first place.
Yes they should. We've been having this moan on here for a long time. IMO (and i know other people feel slightly different) it should be the white lines on every inch of every track with no allowances anywhere and at least part of one wheel should always be inside those lines. Let's not pretend it's just suddenly an issue now, though.

The directives for the race were quite clear, that all drivers were told they were free to do exactly what Hamilton was doing, and numerous drivers have verified that. If Verstappen and RBR were not aware or chose not to do it, then that's an error on their part and there is no-one else to blame. The race director changing his mind mid-race is ridiculous, but had no impact on the result of the race.
My favorite incident is giving a pass on Grosjean toppling Hülkenberg, which also made a mock of the penalty points system as well. They surely used an excuse of the his car's wheel touching the kerb, to claim he legally crashed into Hülkenberg, coming from outside the circuit where Hülkenberg couldn't possibly see or expect him.

foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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I watched the race again, such a GOAT.

Side note: did you guys realize Lewis said "leave it to me Bono" when Vest was within ~3sec. One lap later redbull copied and radioed to ves "we leave it to you". Redbull is so petty. They even try to steal the cool from Merc even when they are faster. lol :D

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djos
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 11:12 am
e30ernest wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:49 am
hollus wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:46 am
Yep, if they had applied the criteria from the first half of the race for the whole race, no one would be complaining. And if they had applied the criteria from the second half of the race for the whole race, no one would be complaining.
Nah, I think if they didn't change the track limits they set for turn 4 from the start of the race to the end, it'll still be an issue because Max went out during an overtake. It would have been better if Turn 4 was always enforced, then no one would get confused about the differences between what happened during Max's pass and what everyone else was doing during their normal drive around turn 4.
It was silly they changed it mid race and I think we ALL agree on that, but the rules regarding that corner were the same for all drivers at all times, and were made clear to all the drivers. No-one was disadvantaged at any point of the race.
Regardless of the drivers abusing track limits under normal racing conditions, the precedent for penalising “off track overtakes” has been around for as long as I can recall.

Red Bull have direct experience with this, eg 2009 in Singapore. Mark Webber got a 20-second penalty for this exact move when he drove around the outside of Kamui Kobayashi to take 10th.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/singa ... 9/4459059/
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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langedweil wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:56 pm
I truly do not understand your beef .. but I'll shove it under a sign of the times thing.
No matter what Masi says, 27.3 sets the boundaries .. policing or not, that's just the written sporting regulations. Anything else is just opinion; which is fine, but no more than that.
There is a clause about "having an important reason" for doing so. That is where *instructions from the race Director" file under.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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langedweil wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:00 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:50 pm
Max overtook in turn 4, max ran outside track limits at turn 4. Quite simple really
Lewis ran out of track limits in turn 4 for 29 times. Quite simple really as well.

Sort of Mexican stand-off.
More important, did you enjoy 56 laps of tension?
I most certainly did .. not even being a fanboy of either one.
Lewis ran out at turn 4, and in the drivers briefing the drivers were all told it wouldnt be policed. Overtaking off track at turn 4 was stictly not allowed, so again.... quite simple really :wink:

As for the tension, horrible for the fans of either side, but can imagine it was very exciting for the neutrals.
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hollus
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Regarding Bottas’ last pit stop to get the fastest lap: How wise was it and much of a team decision was it?
He was almost certain to collect that 1 point. But coming from a botched pit stop in the same race, there was a real risk of losing time stuck in the pits again. He’d roughly lose 3 points for every 5 seconds stuck. How many bad pit stops did he have in 2020? 2, 3, 4? Not sure of the number, but I remember it as “many”. So he had a 5% chance of losing points, potentially losing all his 15 points.
Meanwhile, looking forward, he was 10-15 seconds behind a dog fight. The chances of those two spinning, getting a flat tire or losing the front wing was relatively high, and being 10 seconds behind, you might win 3 points or even 10. He gave that away. Certainly he gave up his best chance at a not impossible win, and, were both to DNF, he created this 5% scenario where Norris would inherit that win.
Was the 1 point for fastest lap worth all the risks?
Maybe, just maybe, the fact that he took that fastest lap point from Max might have played a role.
Although he went for the point several times in the past.

All hypothetical scenarios, but interesting i my mind. What is the real risk of botching it in those last minute pit stops?
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:13 am
langedweil wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:00 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:50 pm
Max overtook in turn 4, max ran outside track limits at turn 4. Quite simple really
Lewis ran out of track limits in turn 4 for 29 times. Quite simple really as well.

Sort of Mexican stand-off.
More important, did you enjoy 56 laps of tension?
I most certainly did .. not even being a fanboy of either one.
Lewis ran out at turn 4, and in the drivers briefing the drivers were all told it wouldnt be policed. Overtaking off track at turn 4 was stictly not allowed, so again.... quite simple really :wink:

As for the tension, horrible for the fans of either side, but can imagine it was very exciting for the neutrals.
All quite simple. But the issue with the whole 'discussion' is that different people are addressing the question on completely different levels.

Group 1: Were the rules concerning track limits, as set by race control in this specific instance, properly enforced? (the 'quite simple' part - yes)
Group 2: Are the rules concerning track limits, and the notion that race control decides per race which corners will be policed, OK as they are?

Those are two different things - and most of the 'clash' seems to come from treating people in group 2 as if they are answering question 1, and vice versa.

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Phil
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Pitting Bottas for fastest lap IMHO was a no brainer. It took one point away from Verstappen (good for everyone at Mercrdes) and gave it to Bottas (good for Bottas). If the two had crashed, he would have potentially walked away with 26 points anyway.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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Phil wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:21 am
Pitting Bottas for fastest lap IMHO was a no brainer. It took one point away from Verstappen (good for everyone at Mercrdes) and gave it to Bottas (good for Bottas). If the two had crashed, he would have potentially walked away with 26 points anyway.
Yeah I agree. Plus the team would have looked at why the 2nd stop was long. So they may have seen that it was a reason that wouldn't happen again. Plus they didnt have the stress of needing a 2 second stop, they could easily take a leisurely 4 second stop and be fine.
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:30 am
Phil wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:21 am
Pitting Bottas for fastest lap IMHO was a no brainer. It took one point away from Verstappen (good for everyone at Mercrdes) and gave it to Bottas (good for Bottas). If the two had crashed, he would have potentially walked away with 26 points anyway.
Yeah I agree. Plus the team would have looked at why the 2nd stop was long. So they may have seen that it was a reason that wouldn't happen again. Plus they didnt have the stress of needing a 2 second stop, they could easily take a leisurely 4 second stop and be fine.
And as he came out of the pits still in third, he'd have reaped the benefit of a crash between the two regardless. It was probably Bottas who decided he wanted to go for it. They wouldn't have called him in for that without his agreement.

mika vs michael
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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I have been watching F1 since 90's...yes previous century...one of the things I miss is the F1 drivers character...I mean now they are totally like soldiers...they don't take decisions. they don't defy their teams. Vettel a few times Hamilton maybe questioning a few times. Verstappen complaining. I would enjoy a Verstappen that would not give the place back. Make Hamilton win it in the stewards room... not on track. I mean I miss that tension and controversy. They look to me more like playstation gamers...no flare no heat. And that has to do with the fact that now things are so controlled and so predictable that drivers are like a piece of the machine. like a part that if does not comply it will be replaced. back then you need to have some kind of character and skills. sorry for the nostalgic tone. In the end Verstappen might have got a 5 secs penalty and lose the 1st place but anyway.
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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Bahrain Grand Prix - Sakhir, March 26 - 28

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mika vs michael wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:50 am
I have been watching F1 since 90's...yes previous century...one of the things I miss is the F1 drivers character...I mean now they are totally like soldiers...they don't take decisions. they don't defy their teams. Vettel a few times Hamilton maybe questioning a few times. Verstappen complaining. I would enjoy a Verstappen that would not give the place back. Make Hamilton win it in the stewards room... not on track. I mean I miss that tension and controversy. They look to me more like playstation gamers...no flare no heat. And that has to do with the fact that now things are so controlled and so predictable that drivers are like a piece of the machine. like a part that if does not comply it will be replaced. back then you need to have some kind of character and skills. sorry for the nostalgic tone. In the end Verstappen might have got a 5 secs penalty and lose the 1st place but anyway.
Having also watched from the 90's, I'm not sure where you've got that idea from. Drivers were still nice back then, and only a few would have been a total dick about it.
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