Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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zeph
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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About Bottas:


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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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zeph wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:10 am
About Bottas:

Exactly like they say. Bottas is a decent driver but his yardstick is Lewis Hamilton! Bottas has had 5 seasons though, so its time to change to try and find someone who can run close to Lewis or even beat him .
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:22 pm
zeph wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:10 am
About Bottas:

Exactly like they say. Bottas is a decent driver but his yardstick is Lewis Hamilton! Bottas has had 5 seasons though, so its time to change to try and find someone who can run close to Lewis or even beat him .
I mean, there's surely something to it, BUT,
no matter by how much you blow-up the yardstick: A guy who spins 6 times in a wet race, has trouble even bringing home 3rd place in the wdc in the most dominant cars in f1 history and gets easily beaten by a reserve driver without a fitting seat... is not a top driver and/or deserving of a top team seat.

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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:38 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:22 pm
zeph wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:10 am
About Bottas:

Exactly like they say. Bottas is a decent driver but his yardstick is Lewis Hamilton! Bottas has had 5 seasons though, so its time to change to try and find someone who can run close to Lewis or even beat him .
I mean, there's surely something to it, BUT,
no matter by how much you blow-up the yardstick: A guy who spins 6 times in a wet race, has trouble even bringing home 3rd place in the wdc in the most dominant cars in f1 history and gets easily beaten by a reserve driver without a fitting seat... is not a top driver and/or deserving of a top team seat.
Im a huge Russell fan and can't wait for him to get in the Mercedes but at no point did he easily beat Bottas in Sakhir.
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:38 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:22 pm


Exactly like they say. Bottas is a decent driver but his yardstick is Lewis Hamilton! Bottas has had 5 seasons though, so its time to change to try and find someone who can run close to Lewis or even beat him .
I mean, there's surely something to it, BUT,
no matter by how much you blow-up the yardstick: A guy who spins 6 times in a wet race, has trouble even bringing home 3rd place in the wdc in the most dominant cars in f1 history and gets easily beaten by a reserve driver without a fitting seat... is not a top driver and/or deserving of a top team seat.
Im a huge Russell fan and can't wait for him to get in the Mercedes but at no point did he easily beat Bottas in Sakhir.
Nor has Bottas "trouble even bringing home 3rd place in teh wdc". Once has he finished outside of top 3, that was 2018. And Ferrari was quite capable that year. And that year he was 4 points from 3rd place. 2017 he was third, and easily so. Some 100 points down to Kimi in 4th. All the other seasons he has been 2nd.

But I don't expect people to abide by context anymore. People wants to live in their fantasy land where make up stories are to believed.

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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I was a big fan of Merc picking up Bottas after Nico retired. I feel he has delivered exactly what Merc needed to win all the WCC's since he arrived in the team.

Is Russell better? Maybe. Will it change the outcome of the WCC? Probably not.

I'm torn on this.

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codetower
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:04 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:50 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:41 am
I'd rather see the Ricci-> Merc, Bott->Williams, Russ->McLaren instead...
Might as well wish for Verstappen and Leclerc alongside Hamilton in a three car Mercedes team. :D

Ricciardo is on a three year deal at Mclaren, so that's not going to happen. Also his stock at this moment in time isnt what it used to be, so not much incentive either.

Bottas going back to Williams seems realistic looking at Massa and Barricello though.
I just can't see Toto putting Russell next to Hamilton in 2022. Going to be McL2007 all over again.
Here's the issue, I see HAM retiring soon. I think he'd rather go out on top, then spend his last years number 3 or 4 on the grid (Assuming Red Bull/Ferrari/Mclaren somehow catch up to Mercedes with the new 2022 regs). Toto wants to position Mercedes with the best driver(s) for the next 5+ years. He's thinking long term. If RUS doesn't go to Mercedes, and get's snatched up by a rival team, Who's gonna be Mercs driver once Hamilton leaves?

As far as BOT goes, Williams does seems like the logical choice but I personally think he's done with Mercedes. Going to their sister team might not be too appealing to him. I can't see Red Bull NOT bringing back Checo, but perhaps Alpha Tauri is a decent option for BOT. Also I think SEB might be going all out this year and just walk away on a high note after this season (opting out of his last year). I think Aston/Racing Point would be a really good landing spot for BOT if Seb retires. Either way, I think there are better options that would be more interesting for BOT than Williams.

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Big Tea
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Bottas is usually seen statically as the second finisher in the table. How ever you gauge it, who could do more?
Just comparing with a 'possibility' is one thing, comparing with actual results is another

It would need someone who could beat Hamilton, and there are not many of them
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Russell in the 2nd Mercedes seat is a no-brainer. Also, Hamilton has enough titles on his resumé. If Lewis grabs the 8th title this season he'll beat Schumacher, with Merc. that'll do.
It's in their benefit to have a guy like Russell be the next champ. Bottas never will be. Russell might actually even be a handfull for Lewis, who knows. But Mercedes has no choice.
Russell @ Merc 22 is a no-brainer.

Again, Bottas lacks self reflection and lives in his own reality. He thinks he still even has a shot for the 2021 title, imagine that. He thinks he's mentally strong and that it's not an option to be seen as a 'loser'. Unfortunately, he's far too late with that, and he's only fooling himself. If he ever was mentally strong, he wouldn't have raised two fingers or publically said 'fck' you on the team radio after a incidental victory.

Sky Italia, F1 insider and a lot of other media are reporting Russell 2022 is done and dusted. I really can't see anything else either.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Hmm. Bottas skill is not a part of this equation yet. I think as pointed out earlier Toto has to think of the continuation plan for the team. If Hamilton retires you cant just be chucking Russell in at the last minute. It would be too much risk to expect him to learn and lead in a new environment against guys like Max and Charles who are deeply bedded into their teams. It would be a disaster for Mercedes. The logical way to avoid that embarassing situation is to get George Russell bedded into Mercedes before Lewis calls it quits. Bottas unfortunately is not the future, he is getting old and it's not because he is not fast, but he is an inhibitor to the passing of the batton between Lewis and the next Mercedrs star.

If George comes in and is three tenths off Lewis it's still OK because at the end of the day he has years ahead of him and will grow with the team.
. . . . . .. .... ..

zeph
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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LHamilton wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:53 pm

Nor has Bottas "trouble even bringing home 3rd place in teh wdc". Once has he finished outside of top 3, that was 2018. And Ferrari was quite capable that year. And that year he was 4 points from 3rd place. 2017 he was third, and easily so. Some 100 points down to Kimi in 4th. All the other seasons he has been 2nd.

But I don't expect people to abide by context anymore. People wants to live in their fantasy land where make up stories are to believed.
Exactly, until this season Bottas did everything you could realistically expect from your second driver. Podcast attempts to explain why he is struggling so much more this year, but I think some ppl maybe didn’t listen to it and commented anyway :lol:

Mind you, I’m not saying he has to stay at Merc, but some ppl make it sound like he’s the worst and that certainly isn’t the case.

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Schuttelberg
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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LOL.

It's mind boggling how result oriented people in the world have become. Hamilton and Rosberg also won everything in their time together but, Rosberg had the capacity to compete against a RedBull or a Ferrari in an equal car. There's no doubt he wasn't so great at passing but he was streets ahead of Bottas and most importantly he had speed. Rosberg was untouchable on some weekends consistently even against a driver of Hamilton's calibre. Bottas is nowhere near him. The only reason "he's been doing his job" is because Mercedes was so far ahead and now in 2021 when Hamilton needs his support, he is nowhere.

The logical solution was to have Ocon in the Mercedes already and then contemplate between him and Russell. Instead, a Mercedes prodigy is now a Renault driver and if Hamilton decides to pull the hand break on his career, Mercedes are left with an unproven talent and a proven failure. They've put too many eggs in the Hamilton basket. I much preferred a Hamilton/Rosberg pairing where your second driver is not a doormat. He's about 1.5 and fully capable of being champion. It's very clear that Red Bull and Ferrari have both recognised this and put things in place for a good 4-5 years. People keep saying that once Hamilton leaves, Verstappen will go to Mercedes but that seat may not be so illusive come 2022. Mercedes have gone from having any driver they like in that seat to Hamilton/bust. It's a clear failure of management and investment but thanks to the masterclass of Hamilton's driving and Mercedes engineers, people will sing hymns of leadership in tribute to Toto Wolff.
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JordanMugen
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:02 pm
Is Russell better? Maybe. Will it change the outcome of the WCC? Probably not.
You don't seem to be putting Russell's best interests first? :?:

codetower wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:08 pm
I think the criticism towards Bottas is a bit harsh. If Hamilton is considered the greatest driver to ever drive, then BOT isn't as bad as people think.
Yet Bottas is demonstrably not as good as Button or Rosberg compared to Hamilton. That's the problem.

Bizarre that Mercedes did not make more efforts to find a driver at least at the level of Button or Rosberg. For example Alonso or Ricciardo were available for 2019, perhaps they would perform worse than Button or Rosberg compared to Hamilton after all, but Mercedes did not even trial these drivers to find out!

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nzjrs
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:40 am


Bizarre that Mercedes did not make more efforts to find a driver at least at the level of Button or Rosberg. For example Alonso or Ricciardo were available for 2019, perhaps they would perform worse than Button or Rosberg compared to Hamilton after all, but Mercedes did not even trial these drivers to find out!
I suspect Hamilton would have Vetoed Alonso and possibly Ricciardo too.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:40 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:02 pm
Is Russell better? Maybe. Will it change the outcome of the WCC? Probably not.
You don't seem to be putting Russell's best interests first? :?:

codetower wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:08 pm
I think the criticism towards Bottas is a bit harsh. If Hamilton is considered the greatest driver to ever drive, then BOT isn't as bad as people think.
Yet Bottas is demonstrably not as good as Button or Rosberg compared to Hamilton. That's the problem.

Bizarre that Mercedes did not make more efforts to find a driver at least at the level of Button or Rosberg. For example Alonso or Ricciardo were available for 2019, perhaps they would perform worse than Button or Rosberg compared to Hamilton after all, but Mercedes did not even trial these drivers to find out!
Going in to 2019, Bottas was doing what was needed though. And a team like Mercedes would never ever consider Alonso, especially in a team with Lewis. No one drops a nuke on their own factory!

Bottas is indeed not as good as Button or Rosberg, but when Mercedes signed Bottas, he had every potential to be as good as Button and Rosberg.
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