Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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theblackangus
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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1 car teams...... =)

politburo
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:00 pm
I think that I'm less anti-Bottas, and more just pro-Russell.

Bottas is only ahead of Perez due to having waaaaaay longer in the team and car. The fact that Checo is in a new car and team, and still as close as he is, tells me that he is probably the better driver.
I have to disagree, even in Bottas' first season at Mercedes (2017) he scored podiums in 14/20 races. He was definitely 3rd best, and finished the season on 305 points, 60 points behind his teammate, won 3 races on merit, Perez is already 70+ points behind his teammate at this point and can you imagine Perez winning another race this season under normal racing conditions, I certainly cannot given How good Verstappen/Hamilton are in the races.
"Nosotros diferimos, pero nosotros todos son iguales"

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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politburo wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:23 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:00 pm
I think that I'm less anti-Bottas, and more just pro-Russell.

Bottas is only ahead of Perez due to having waaaaaay longer in the team and car. The fact that Checo is in a new car and team, and still as close as he is, tells me that he is probably the better driver.
I have to disagree, even in Bottas' first season at Mercedes (2017) he scored podiums in 14/20 races. He was definitely 3rd best, and finished the season on 305 points, 60 points behind his teammate, won 3 races on merit, Perez is already 70+ points behind his teammate at this point and can you imagine Perez winning another race this season under normal racing conditions, I certainly cannot given How good Verstappen/Hamilton are in the races.
Bottas came from a Mercedes team in Williams, however.

Perez had to change engines, aero philosophy, and team expectations. I think he's doing very, very well.

Jolle
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:36 pm
politburo wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:23 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:00 pm
I think that I'm less anti-Bottas, and more just pro-Russell.

Bottas is only ahead of Perez due to having waaaaaay longer in the team and car. The fact that Checo is in a new car and team, and still as close as he is, tells me that he is probably the better driver.
I have to disagree, even in Bottas' first season at Mercedes (2017) he scored podiums in 14/20 races. He was definitely 3rd best, and finished the season on 305 points, 60 points behind his teammate, won 3 races on merit, Perez is already 70+ points behind his teammate at this point and can you imagine Perez winning another race this season under normal racing conditions, I certainly cannot given How good Verstappen/Hamilton are in the races.
Bottas came from a Mercedes team in Williams, however.

Perez had to change engines, aero philosophy, and team expectations. I think he's doing very, very well.
You could also reverse that. Bottas had to fill a place left by the world champion next to a multiple world champion while only had a few years of experience in one of the smalles teams on the grid. Perez raced almost every brand in his long career and filling the seat as a sort of last resort (if even Perez can’t handle it, there must be something else going on).

LHamilton
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:36 pm
politburo wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:23 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:00 pm
I think that I'm less anti-Bottas, and more just pro-Russell.

Bottas is only ahead of Perez due to having waaaaaay longer in the team and car. The fact that Checo is in a new car and team, and still as close as he is, tells me that he is probably the better driver.
I have to disagree, even in Bottas' first season at Mercedes (2017) he scored podiums in 14/20 races. He was definitely 3rd best, and finished the season on 305 points, 60 points behind his teammate, won 3 races on merit, Perez is already 70+ points behind his teammate at this point and can you imagine Perez winning another race this season under normal racing conditions, I certainly cannot given How good Verstappen/Hamilton are in the races.
Bottas came from a Mercedes team in Williams, however.

Perez had to change engines, aero philosophy, and team expectations. I think he's doing very, very well.
You know a person is desperate when he brings up things that are applicable to the other party to which whom he compare things to, but decides not to apply them to the "other side" since it would invalidate his original point.

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Ryar
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:07 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:55 pm
Nobody gets excited watching dominant driver x beating his support guy by a country mile every sunday for years and years.

Prost vs Senna
Alonso vs Hamilton
Hamilton vs Rosberg
Verstappen vs Ricciardo
Vettel vs Leclerc

These rivalries are what I want to see. And not only in the midfield, but at the very top.

And that's why I don’t like to see a guy like Bottas occupying a top seat.
Entertaining for the fans and the drama but the teams know their history. They end in tears, lawsuits, failed championships and sometimes even death. Plus, you’re team is going to rival itself from the inside (and blowup in your face). It’s all toxic.
What fans want and what the teams want are polar opposites in F1. Everyone understands this and yet, there are arguments from fans to have two alpha drivers in a team. On the contrary, teams are happy with the likes of Barrichello, Massa, Kovalainen, Bottas, Kimi and Perez. Those who want hardcore intra team battle (especially when one team is dominating by massive margin), hate to see these drivers having seats without troubling their team mates, others who are happy to see their preferred driver being unchallenged by these drivers, argue in their support to show that, their preferred driver's wingman was/is better than the others'. There is no rocket science in this. :)
Hakuna Matata!

zeph
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:13 pm
zeph wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:49 am
What has Bottas done to you to trigger such animosity? :?
you guys are really black-and white in your perceptions.
animosity? where did you get that from.

the actual question should be asked to you yourself,
what has bottas done to get falsely worshipped into the saint status you guys are giving him.
I have truncated your quote for brevity.

I detect a bit of strawman here, but as for B&W: that seems to be mostly you, Bottas all bad, no bueno. Post after post, you continue to reiterate the same point.

I may have missed some, but I haven't seen anybody here sanctifying him, just people countering your hyperbole with attempts at balance. Nobody says Bottas is one of the greats, I think most people recognize he's an average driver: he's quick on his day, occasionally capable of beating Hamilton, but no match for him over a season.

But he's up against Hamilton, statistically the greatest driver of all time, hello. Perspective matters.

Ricciardo comfortably beat Vettel, and he was hailed as a future champ. Then he moved to Renault where he wasn't appreciably better than Ocon, and now he's getting beat by Norris. Is he mediocre? No, F1 is just really that competitive.

Leclerc beat Vettel, and he was hailed as a future champ. Then Sainz joins the team and makes him look normal. Is he mediocre? No, F1 is just really that competitive.

According to Joe Saward, Bottas had a deal with Renault last year, Enstone was enthusiastic about him joining, but the suits in France decided they wanted Alonso instead. It's not surprising Bottas is struggling this year, he's a man on the way out. I think nobody disagrees Russell is a more promising candidate for the second Merc seat, other than maybe Hamilton for whom Bottas is a perfectly agreeable wingman.

But if you're really that terrible, you don't get to stay in F1. It is super-competitive, and if you can't cut it you go home. Bottas is not one of the greats, but to hang around in F1 -much less a top team- for nine seasons you need to be doing something right.
Last edited by zeph on Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄

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adrianjordan
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:36 pm
politburo wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:23 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:00 pm
I think that I'm less anti-Bottas, and more just pro-Russell.

Bottas is only ahead of Perez due to having waaaaaay longer in the team and car. The fact that Checo is in a new car and team, and still as close as he is, tells me that he is probably the better driver.
I have to disagree, even in Bottas' first season at Mercedes (2017) he scored podiums in 14/20 races. He was definitely 3rd best, and finished the season on 305 points, 60 points behind his teammate, won 3 races on merit, Perez is already 70+ points behind his teammate at this point and can you imagine Perez winning another race this season under normal racing conditions, I certainly cannot given How good Verstappen/Hamilton are in the races.
Bottas came from a Mercedes team in Williams, however.

Perez had to change engines, aero philosophy, and team expectations. I think he's doing very, very well.
To be fair though, Bottas did have a full pre-season testing schedule to get used to the Merc. That must have helped him adapt.
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El Scorchio
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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One key difference. Perez is racing in support of Verstappen. Bottas isn't racing in support of Hamilton. Perez is often going to get put on contra strategies to help his team mate at the cost of his own result. I'm also fairly sure his car is set up massively toward race pace and extending tyre life rather than qualifying pace.

It probably took him a couple of races to get into the groove after moving to a new team/engine from being with the same one for seven straight seasons previously, but Perez is doing a great job.

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Sieper
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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politburo wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:23 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:00 pm
I think that I'm less anti-Bottas, and more just pro-Russell.

Bottas is only ahead of Perez due to having waaaaaay longer in the team and car. The fact that Checo is in a new car and team, and still as close as he is, tells me that he is probably the better driver.
I have to disagree, even in Bottas' first season at Mercedes (2017) he scored podiums in 14/20 races. He was definitely 3rd best, and finished the season on 305 points, 60 points behind his teammate, won 3 races on merit, Perez is already 70+ points behind his teammate at this point and can you imagine Perez winning another race this season under normal racing conditions, I certainly cannot given How good Verstappen/Hamilton are in the races.
In 2017 Max was much more out of the equation as Lewis is this year as the 2017 Mercedes was much more dominant than any car in 2021. You'd have to put Perez in the 2017 Mercedes to value Bottas accomplishment.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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dans79
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:33 am
I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄
I think all the hate Bottas gets here, and all the hype Russell gets, is because some people just can't handle Lewis achieving what he has. Thus they are constantly looking for anything and everything they can to try and diminish his achievements.
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basti313
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:33 am
I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄
Well...yes and no. I do not think any hard Ham fan here can think of this :lol:

Honestly:
- I feel like the love of Bot is somehow similar to the Webber...never a top tier but people like him. The point that Bot is the clear Nr.2 pet with no competitiveness allowed, we are missing some nice Multi21 show.
- Bot is sometimes beating Ham as Ros did beat Ham. Even with 0.2 or 0.4sec. Maybe except for last season where it was more like the Vet-Web situation in their last year when Vet was on rails. Concentration, maybe not as perfect in Q once the car is a bit difficult...but then shining in a race...a bit like Alonso lost his 2012 WDC, isn't it? So I feel like Bot is just shining on Ham's merit.
- The big question on Rus is for me how willing he is to get his balls cut off. Maybe he can hide them from Toto in some way to get the signature. Then first race 2022...balls out and go for it [-o< =D>

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Sieper
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:26 am
One key difference. Perez is racing in support of Verstappen. Bottas isn't racing in support of Hamilton. Perez is often going to get put on contra strategies to help his team mate at the cost of his own result. I'm also fairly sure his car is set up massively toward race pace and extending tyre life rather than qualifying pace.

It probably took him a couple of races to get into the groove after moving to a new team/engine from being with the same one for seven straight seasons previously, but Perez is doing a great job.
While that is true (imho) where did that ever effect a race by Perez? Max (bar Imola) outqualified Perez by a margin and even in that race he passed him on merit in the first meters (as he did with Lewis) so Perez did not have to do any "support" driving there. If you are talking about not fighting for position (whilst on a different strategy) in France, yes that is true, that happened. What did that cost Perez? Nothing, he would have never been able to keep Max at bay (like Bottas and Hamilton also couldn't). Now the support driving of Bottas. Giving a tow in Baku Qualy to Lewis (and Charles), check. Being asked over the radio to not attack Hamilton in Austria, check 2 (only later when their position was under heavy pressure of Lando they allowed Bottas through). I am sure I am forgetting examples but Bottas has had to compromise races on several occasions already, Perez not once. Yet Perez is the support driver and Bottas is not.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Sieper
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:53 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:33 am
I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄
I think all the hate Bottas gets here, and all the hype Russell gets, is because some people just can't handle Lewis achieving what he has. Thus they are constantly looking for anything and everything they can to try and diminish his achievements.
well, against Bottas is just a fact that it counts less hard. Would it have been against Rosberg it would have been more telling. But there is not much Hamilton can do about that. Rosberg quit. The upselling of Bottas by some guys is just not being bought. Same with Perez. Lets be frank, they are both in that car as to not upset the driver who delivers.
Controversy does not have a short memory.