Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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El Scorchio
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:57 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:26 am
One key difference. Perez is racing in support of Verstappen. Bottas isn't racing in support of Hamilton. Perez is often going to get put on contra strategies to help his team mate at the cost of his own result. I'm also fairly sure his car is set up massively toward race pace and extending tyre life rather than qualifying pace.

It probably took him a couple of races to get into the groove after moving to a new team/engine from being with the same one for seven straight seasons previously, but Perez is doing a great job.
While that is true (imho) where did that ever effect a race by Perez? Max (bar Imola) outqualified Perez by a margin and even in that race he passed him on merit in the first meters (as he did with Lewis) so Perez did not have to do any "support" driving there. If you are talking about not fighting for position (whilst on a different strategy) in France, yes that is true, that happened. What did that cost Perez? Nothing, he would have never been able to keep Max at bay (like Bottas and Hamilton also couldn't). Now the support driving of Bottas. Giving a tow in Baku Qualy to Lewis (and Charles), check. Being asked over the radio to not attack Hamilton in Austria, check 2 (only later when their position was under heavy pressure of Lando they allowed Bottas through). I am sure I am forgetting examples but Bottas has had to compromise races on several occasions already, Perez not once. Yet Perez is the support driver and Bottas is not.
As I said, I think Perez' car is set up more toward race pace and tyre preservation which obviously sacrifices his grid position. If he qualifies second then great. otherwise he's there to go long and be a blocker for the Mercedes cars at pit stop time, while Verstappen is free to run his own race. It's clear at some times in races he's driving to a plan rather than as quickly as he actually could go.

Again, the key difference is that Perez is driving to support Verstappen's WDC campaign primiarily with the WCC being a bonus.
Bottas is driving to support Mercedes WCC campaign which as we know is their first priority over the WDC. Sometimes he will have to support Hamilton for WDC purposes. However let us not forget while Bottas has had to play the team game on some occasions, Hamilton has also had to cede position to Bottas on occasion as well which is usually conveniently forgotten. There have been some team calls at Hamilton's expense. Verstappen will never be asked to cede a position to help out the team.

In Austria 2 this year it's obvious the call to Bottas was to preserve WCC points to try and keep Norris behind them both. When it was clear the damage to Hamilton's car was making him too slow for that to work, they changed that and Bottas was free to pass.

aMessageToCharlie
aMessageToCharlie
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Hamilton lobbying for / confirming(?) Bottas to keep carrying the water in 2022:

Mercedes’ Lewis Hamilton feels that they “currently have the pairing that delivers best when it comes to balance in the team and the knowledge of how [they] can develop [their] car” [Motorsport-Total]

“At some point that will change. I won't be here forever, and neither will Valtteri. But for the moment, we have done well and can do well over the years we will continue to do so”, Hamilton added [Motorsport-Total]

“I have always said that overall Valtteri is the best team-mate I have ever had. And when I say that, I mean Not only the performance, but also the morale in the team and how we work together”, Hamilton reiterated [Motorsport-Total]

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:13 pm
Hamilton lobbying for / confirming(?) Bottas to keep carrying the water in 2022:

Mercedes’ Lewis Hamilton feels that they “currently have the pairing that delivers best when it comes to balance in the team and the knowledge of how [they] can develop [their] car” [Motorsport-Total]

“At some point that will change. I won't be here forever, and neither will Valtteri. But for the moment, we have done well and can do well over the years we will continue to do so”, Hamilton added [Motorsport-Total]

“I have always said that overall Valtteri is the best team-mate I have ever had. And when I say that, I mean Not only the performance, but also the morale in the team and how we work together”, Hamilton reiterated [Motorsport-Total]
But he's right. Russell is replacement for
Hamilton, not Bottas. Lewis doesn't need him, he has nothing to gain from him and a lot to loose.
While he would probably beat him over the season, it quite possible that Russell is faster than Lewis in this point in time. That would lead to in team competition, tension and points loss.
While Mercedes mabye need Russell, Hamilton certainly does not!

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:33 am
I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄
I don't know any Hamilton fan (I know a lot , being a Hamilton fan myself) that doesn't want to see George Russell in the other car. I cannot wait for Toto to ditch Bottas and create the strongest line up on the grid for 2022.
GoLandoGo
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King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:44 pm
I cannot wait for Toto to ditch Bottas and create the strongest line up on the grid for 2022.
But why would he do that!? IMO it makes no sense.

If Lewis decides 2023 will be his last season then that could be Russell's opportunity.

Otoh, I would love to see Russell vs Hamilton.

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Sieper
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:48 am
Sieper wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:57 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:26 am
One key difference. Perez is racing in support of Verstappen. Bottas isn't racing in support of Hamilton. Perez is often going to get put on contra strategies to help his team mate at the cost of his own result. I'm also fairly sure his car is set up massively toward race pace and extending tyre life rather than qualifying pace.

It probably took him a couple of races to get into the groove after moving to a new team/engine from being with the same one for seven straight seasons previously, but Perez is doing a great job.
While that is true (imho) where did that ever effect a race by Perez? Max (bar Imola) outqualified Perez by a margin and even in that race he passed him on merit in the first meters (as he did with Lewis) so Perez did not have to do any "support" driving there. If you are talking about not fighting for position (whilst on a different strategy) in France, yes that is true, that happened. What did that cost Perez? Nothing, he would have never been able to keep Max at bay (like Bottas and Hamilton also couldn't). Now the support driving of Bottas. Giving a tow in Baku Qualy to Lewis (and Charles), check. Being asked over the radio to not attack Hamilton in Austria, check 2 (only later when their position was under heavy pressure of Lando they allowed Bottas through). I am sure I am forgetting examples but Bottas has had to compromise races on several occasions already, Perez not once. Yet Perez is the support driver and Bottas is not.
As I said, I think Perez' car is set up more toward race pace and tyre preservation which obviously sacrifices his grid position. If he qualifies second then great. otherwise he's there to go long and be a blocker for the Mercedes cars at pit stop time, while Verstappen is free to run his own race. It's clear at some times in races he's driving to a plan rather than as quickly as he actually could go.

Again, the key difference is that Perez is driving to support Verstappen's WDC campaign primiarily with the WCC being a bonus.
Bottas is driving to support Mercedes WCC campaign which as we know is their first priority over the WDC. Sometimes he will have to support Hamilton for WDC purposes. However let us not forget while Bottas has had to play the team game on some occasions, Hamilton has also had to cede position to Bottas on occasion as well which is usually conveniently forgotten. There have been some team calls at Hamilton's expense. Verstappen will never be asked to cede a position to help out the team.

In Austria 2 this year it's obvious the call to Bottas was to preserve WCC points to try and keep Norris behind them both. When it was clear the damage to Hamilton's car was making him too slow for that to work, they changed that and Bottas was free to pass.
In Austria 2 this year Bottas could have just passed Hamilton after the damage and they would have had the exact same WCC points (and better chances for Bottas later in the race) yet, this was forbidden until Lando came too close for comfort.

And in Baku, why was his qualy sacrificed for a Hamilton (and smart leclerc also) tow? How did that benefit primarily for the WCC? Why not try to both wait for a tow or let Hamilton do the towing? Like Max did in Austria.

I think your entire line of reasoning is just not true at all but it is a nice way to make what Hamilton is doing look more tough and what Max is doing easier. Bottas is nothing less of a second man than Perez.

On the point of Verstappen never being called to cede position. Verstappen in 2016 malaysia has given a whole win to Ricciardo when Hamilton’s engine went up in smoke. He was already a pit stop in front and Back at ricciardos tail when that happened. They then called them in, in running order, under the VSC and so then they both had new tires. That could be called bad luck, max never complained but to me that was very painful. Verstappen has also been called into the pit in Monaco so that Ricciardo could overtake Bottas (and Max) via an overcut in I believe 2017 if I remember correctly. Plus, Perez has not once been in a position yet where a ceding max could benefit him, whilst I agree that will likely not happen, how do we know? Perez his car set up for race pace is also, well, a line of thought by you. He himself said he uses the same set up as Max, in fact only now he is going for his own set up more. And in other years? Were Gasly and Albon also set up for the race, and that is why max regularly lapped them?
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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sosic2121 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:35 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:44 pm
I cannot wait for Toto to ditch Bottas and create the strongest line up on the grid for 2022.
But why would he do that!? IMO it makes no sense.

If Lewis decides 2023 will be his last season then that could be Russell's opportunity.

Otoh, I would love to see Russell vs Hamilton.
If I were a team boss, I would want my new young driver to spend a year or 2 next to Lewis to learn as much as he can. So by being team mates would make this happen.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:53 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:33 am
I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄
I think all the hate Bottas gets here, and all the hype Russell gets, is because some people just can't handle Lewis achieving what he has. Thus they are constantly looking for anything and everything they can to try and diminish his achievements.
Underhanded calls of racism don't belong here.

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dans79
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:11 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:53 am
Zynerji wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:33 am
I feel the Bottas love here is more to do with him being a patsy that Hamilton trounces, than anything else.

It's like they can't stand the thought of Russell coming in and beating their favorite driver. All that wasted money on merchandise and all...🙄
I think all the hate Bottas gets here, and all the hype Russell gets, is because some people just can't handle Lewis achieving what he has. Thus they are constantly looking for anything and everything they can to try and diminish his achievements.
Underhanded calls of racism don't belong here.
It has nothing to do with his race or his nationality imo. I think it has everything to do with him preventing some fans driver/team of choice from winning!
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Jolle
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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I hope, that there are more F1 fans that see Hamilton’s abilities and could call themselves a fan, but are not afraid/or even applaud the coming battle/passing the torch with Russell.
To me it brings back the feeling of Lauda/Prost at McLaren.

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dans79
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm
To me it brings back the feeling of Lauda/Prost at McLaren.
Back then people had a lot more patients, and weren't prown to the social media tantrums we see today.
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm
I hope, that there are more F1 fans that see Hamilton’s abilities and could call themselves a fan, but are not afraid/or even applaud the coming battle/passing the torch with Russell.
To me it brings back the feeling of Lauda/Prost at McLaren.
If Russell gets in the car next to Hamilton and beats him then that's a straight up fact - he's beaten him. It won't tell anyone whether it's because Russell is the best thing since Schumacher or whether Hamilton is an over-hyped driver that lucked in to a great team. Those that dislike Hamilton (for whatever the reasons they choose to do so) will shout the latter reason. But they will be ignoring his career as a whole because it will be convenient to do so. Does anyone doubt the greatness of Rossi in MotoGP just because he's getting beaten by younger guys now? No, of course not.

I hope Russell gets a top car soon. If that's next to Hamilton and it results in him beating Hamilton, then that's life and a signal to Hamilton to retire.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:05 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm
To me it brings back the feeling of Lauda/Prost at McLaren.
Back then people had a lot more patients
Well, the doctors did, anyway... :wink: :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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dans79
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:09 pm
dans79 wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:05 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm
To me it brings back the feeling of Lauda/Prost at McLaren.
Back then people had a lot more patients
Well, the doctors did, anyway... :wink: :lol:
Damn talk to text.
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Zynerji
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Re: Silly season 2021-2022-2023

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Maybe I just like the new Cinderella stories (near-rookies/underdogs winning) more than the re-tread sequels of those successes.

Loved watching Lewis fluster Fernando, then winning the next year. Loved watching RBR and Vettel win their first title.

But as with Sebs boring run , Hamilton’s run is now getting beyond stale.

Bring on the Wonder Kids please!