2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:06 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:07 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:57 pm
People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes. He knew exactly where he eas placing his car to make that corner. The car would have been around that corner safely and at a lower speed than normal. In fact i dont think there was any significant understeer either. Lewis intent was simply to occupy the space while turning to keep Max off the apex forcing him to take a wider line. It was not a wreckless dive bomb into a closing gap.
Max is more at fault for playing a game he had no business playing with his pointd advantage. And turn in hard like a mad man, knoeing full well LH44 was occupying the inside of the track.
I am glad it is over and think the discussion should shift. I always maintained that Lewis has mind games in his arsenal. He will continue to present Max with tough decisions to make.. go for it or back out.
When Lewis takes back the lead of the championship he will go back to being conservative and protecting his points.
This is just something Max has never experienced. He will do well to learn game theory.
Interesting that this is missing in most discussions. Just because you may not be found at fault for an incident doesn't mean you will not come out on the loosing end of the incident. Knowing when to push and when to attack will be learned over time. I believe if Max would have just backed out of it he would have passed in the next laps anyway. The Red Bull just seems too strong against Mercedes at the moment.
I don’t agree. When a car has 6kph advantage over you in a straight line it’s going to be almost impossible to get past it. Verstappen couldn’t let Hamilton past he just couldn’t if he wanted to win. Remember also if that happens he has a Mercedes directly in front and another only 2 cars behind he would have been pincered in the pit stops.
Then you still pick up the points and win the next race instead. Unless Mercedes can find more pace from their upgrade now, Hamilton’s only chance this season might well be to hope that Max makes more faulty decisions in some situations. Could well happen since Max hasn’t shown that he learns from these situations before, but merely maintain that he is never wrong and will keep doing what he is doing.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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fenix4life wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:12 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:06 pm
Verstappen couldn’t let Hamilton past he just couldn’t if he wanted to win. Remember also if that happens he has a Mercedes directly in front and another only 2 cars behind he would have been pincered in the pit stops.
Depends whether you want to be WC or just win a race.
Sometimes it's better as a WC leader to let someone pass and go for the big victory. (I know easier said then done)
I agree. If Verstappen doesn’t learn that fact PDQ he will regret it.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:13 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:06 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:07 pm


Interesting that this is missing in most discussions. Just because you may not be found at fault for an incident doesn't mean you will not come out on the loosing end of the incident. Knowing when to push and when to attack will be learned over time. I believe if Max would have just backed out of it he would have passed in the next laps anyway. The Red Bull just seems too strong against Mercedes at the moment.
I don’t agree. When a car has 6kph advantage over you in a straight line it’s going to be almost impossible to get past it. Verstappen couldn’t let Hamilton past he just couldn’t if he wanted to win. Remember also if that happens he has a Mercedes directly in front and another only 2 cars behind he would have been pincered in the pit stops.
Then you still pick up the points and win the next race instead. Unless Mercedes can find more pace from their upgrade now, Hamilton’s only chance this season might well be to hope that Max makes more faulty decisions in some situations. Could well happen since Max hasn’t shown that he learns from these situations before, but merely maintain that he is never wrong and will keep doing what he is doing.
I couldn’t agree more.

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Mogster
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:59 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:53 pm
I don’t buy the being offended at the celebration part.

Especially how we celebrate quotes from Grand Prix, and romanticize greats of the past for being ruthless in their pursuit of victory, and applaud Max for having many of the same attributes.

How many times have we heard Max compared to a young Senna?

Lewis won at his home track, in front of the first full grand stands since 2019… he’s going to be amped.

It’s not an either or thing and it’s just a “no offense, but” type of statement.

Max went to the hospital for precautionary reasons, because Silverstone doesn’t have a CT scanner like other tracks. 51g’s is a hard impact for sure, but NASCAR and Indy Car routinely have those. It’s not unheard of or especially rare. He walked away under his own power and that’s what was relayed to Lewis when Lewis asked.

No amount of Horner / Marko spin changes those facts.

Max’s car being wrecked isn’t Lewis problem. Much as it would be the same if roles were reversed.
As someone here pointed out, He was in Coventry and the tweet was tagged as Silverstone
Sounds like a proxy
My instant response was that it sounded like Horner talking. Something about the sentence structure and words used. I struggle to believe those are Verstappen’s true feelings. It’s about destabilizing Merc and pushing for further sanctions against Hamilton.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:23 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:14 pm
No this is for the approach to the corner and Lewis was even further alongside than in the leftmost image.
At which point was Hamilton significantly ahead approaching the corner?
The point at which Max started to turn in. Hamilton was so far up the inside that Max saw him and unwound some lock before turning back to the right. In the on board footage, you can clearly see Hamilton is almost level with Max. Ergo he was substantially alongside and had done enough to have priority in the corner.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Mogster
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:38 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:23 pm
RZS10 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:14 pm
No this is for the approach to the corner and Lewis was even further alongside than in the leftmost image.
At which point was Hamilton significantly ahead approaching the corner?
The point at which Max started to turn in. Hamilton was so far up the inside that Max saw him and unwound some lock before turning back to the right. In the on board footage, you can clearly see Hamilton is almost level with Max. Ergo he was substantially alongside and had done enough to have priority in the corner.
You can clearly see Lewis from Max’s onboard camera.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Mogster wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:38 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:23 pm

At which point was Hamilton significantly ahead approaching the corner?
The point at which Max started to turn in. Hamilton was so far up the inside that Max saw him and unwound some lock before turning back to the right. In the on board footage, you can clearly see Hamilton is almost level with Max. Ergo he was substantially alongside and had done enough to have priority in the corner.
You can clearly see Lewis from Max’s onboard camera.
Yes, I said that. [edit, I didn't specify which on board so my apologies]

Another view is on this composite made by one the forum members here:
Image

You can clearly see that Hamilton is all but exactly level with Max as they enter the corner phase. It looks ever more like Max just expected Hamilton to back out or swerve to avoid him as usual - indeed as had happened at the end of the Wellington Straight. But this time that didn't happen.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

zeph
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Racing incident, but if I had to attribute blame, I’d go with Verstappen. Not just because of this race, but because he has gotten away with worse. If you can dish it out, you should also be able to take it.

It’s kind of reminiscent of the collision between Rosberg and Hamilton bitd, where Rosberg just had enough of being bullied by Hamilton’s bravado.

Lock2nl
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:47 pm
Mogster wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 9:38 pm

The point at which Max started to turn in. Hamilton was so far up the inside that Max saw him and unwound some lock before turning back to the right. In the on board footage, you can clearly see Hamilton is almost level with Max. Ergo he was substantially alongside and had done enough to have priority in the corner.
You can clearly see Lewis from Max’s onboard camera.
Yes, I said that. [edit, I didn't specify which on board so my apologies]

Another view is on this composite made by one the forum members here:
https://i.imgur.com/oQossKS.png

You can clearly see that Hamilton is all but exactly level with Max as they enter the corner phase. It looks ever more like Max just expected Hamilton to back out or swerve to avoid him as usual - indeed as had happened at the end of the Wellington Straight. But this time that didn't happen.
So that's a deciding moment allowing Lewis to miss the apex and send Max into a 51 g shunt? Seriously?
Let us wait for the moment that this happens to Lewis. It will be interesting....

notsofast
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:11 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:08 pm
Fastest lap for Perez

Did RB ACTUALLY sacrifice team points to take the fastest lap point away from Lewis?
I don't think so, Perez was 10 seconds away from points at that time. However Tsunoda got ahead of Gasly somehow, I'm not sure how that happened.
Not sure if anyone replied yet. Too many posts...

Gasly pitted just before Perez pitted for softs. When Perez pitted, he was P10 or perhaps even P9. So yes, the team sacrificed at least one team point.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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notsofast wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:20 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:11 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:08 pm
Fastest lap for Perez

Did RB ACTUALLY sacrifice team points to take the fastest lap point away from Lewis?
I don't think so, Perez was 10 seconds away from points at that time. However Tsunoda got ahead of Gasly somehow, I'm not sure how that happened.
Not sure if anyone replied yet. Too many posts...

Gasly pitted just before Perez pitted for softs. When Perez pitted, he was P10 or perhaps even P9. So yes, the team sacrificed at least one team point.
Yes they definitely did. As you say, he was running 9th or 10th and they sacrificed a WCC point(s) and a WDC point(s) for Perez in order to help Verstappen's WDC challenge so he didn't lose another point for fastest lap to Hamilton.

It backs up the thought that Red Bull isn't interested in anything other than the WDC for Verstappen.

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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He was tenth, so they gave up one team point and one irrelevant driver point to cost the opposition one WDC&WCC point, zero sum for WCC but -1 for Lewis thus +1 for Max which was quite clever.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... rt_v01.pdf

Restomaniac
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Location: Hull

Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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RZS10 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:21 am
He was tenth, so they gave up one team point and one irrelevant driver point to cost the opposition one WDC&WCC point, zero sum for WCC but -1 for Lewis thus +1 for Max which was quite clever.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... rt_v01.pdf
Unless your Sergio. #-o

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Composite for Lewis/Charles:

Image

Full Album https://imgur.com/a/vN9HY56

I really tried my best to combine both composite images but neither filling in a few key frames nor using the finished image gave any result worth posting since the difference in camera (heli?) position is just too big - one would have to lay a grid onto the track from various known points in both images and then stretch/warp one image so the grid would fit that of the other but that's beyond my capabilities i think. For the composite i just distorted the image preserving the relative positions of objects to each other, most importantly the cars on track.

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carisi2k
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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I 100% agree with Dee here. I am Australian and certainly not a Max fan but if it was Danny Ric involved then you could accuse me of bias but I dislike both these drivers the same. I suspect if the roles were reversed that all these Lewis fans would be baying for Max to be penalised or even suspended for several races. The fact is that Lewis was on the wrong side of the road going in to a corner which doesn't require braking and therefore normal rules don't apply. He was never in front of Max fully and the rule at this corner should be exactly the same as turn 8 at Adelaide for Supercars where if you aren't ahead then you pull in behind. He was always going to go wide and the track is still dirty even if it was the first lap of the race as the dirty line builds up over the race weekend. Max even left room as he was well wide of the apex which shows that Lewis was well and truly going nowhere but in to the side of Max. At the very least the 10 second penalty should have been a separate stop and go and not allowed to be performed at the pit stop and taken straight away.