2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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ispano6
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:34 am
This forum went downhill when Mercedes started to lose their dominance. Now that RedBull Honda is a real threat, lots of people have gone on the defensive here.
Stop trying to insult forum members. You do your arguments no favours by such behaviour.
It takes two to tango, like Toto said.
I wouldn't leave such a comment if the Max, Marko, Horner, and Red Bull haters didn't berate and denigrate their fans. There's been accusations of cheating with flex wings, tire pressures and engine performance upgrades. Max having the superior car so it being his championship to lose. The underhandedness and arrogance of fans of a 7 time world championship winning outfit as if their achievements are their own exudes from their comments and stance. I'm just calling it out as the other side sees it. The repeated Goat comments is a good example of this. We get it.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Ryar wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:59 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:58 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:42 am


You really hate Horner, it's somewhat entertaining.

In any case, he said "you don't stick a wheel up the inside" which is not the same as "no overtaking" (obviously).
I dislike the histrionics. It was showboating to try to get a different outcome.

Hamilton was all but entirely alongside Max as they entered the corner phase. He's alongside enough at turn in for the front of his car to visible in Max's onboard video, his front end ahead of Max's head and thus vision line (although the high cockpit sides make this more difficult than the old days, of course). We know Max saw Lewis because Max turned in with Lewis along side him, opened the wheel and then turned in again all whilst his head is angled towards the right of the car and thus his vision was to the right.

Very much not "sticking a wheel up the inside" as Horner's histrionics claimed.
Stewards thought otherwise. Isn't it?
Stewards apportioned blame. The key word being "predominantly" not "wholly". Ergo, both drivers shared some of the blame.

The stewards likely gave a penalty because they feared the fall out if they didn't. If they thought it was the huge crime that some in here, and Horner/Marko suggest, then they'd have DSQ him. But they didn't. They gave him what amounted to a slap on the wrists.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Nobody said he’s an angel. I have been quite vocal at times that Max carries too much aggression (especially considering his position in the championship) but it carries no weight when observing this corner and this corner alone for the purposes of what happened.
(Unless you are LH who has already been frank in admitting that he wasn’t going to back down again)

Lewis is near as damn it alongside Max. Max sees him and turns out and then “aggressively” comes across. Why? Is he doing it to shut the door or make the corner? (whilst leaving a cars width room at all times for LH, who has equal right to racing space through that corner).

If he’s doing to make the corner then surely there was more capacity for Lewis to also turn in. If Lewis wasn’t capable of doing so then quite clearly he’s got in too hot for the angle he’s coming into Copse at.

There are a few on here stating that both would have never made the corner. If that IS the case then how can VER steer into the corner much more than HAM can? I’d say it’s deliberate to leave the car where it was as he wasn’t going to give in again, as HAM himself acknowledged

The race stewards have already said that Lewis never got onto a line that would bring him near the apex. So please just tell me what a driver on the outside is required to do if the driver on the inside leaves his car positioned in this way? He’s not hanging it around the outside. He’s nearer the racing line and also has a right to make the corner surely?

And please leave politics out of it
Last edited by 101FlyingDutchman on Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tiny73
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:01 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:34 am
This forum went downhill when Mercedes started to lose their dominance. Now that RedBull Honda is a real threat, lots of people have gone on the defensive here.
Stop trying to insult forum members. You do your arguments no favours by such behaviour.
It takes two to tango, like Toto said.
I wouldn't leave such a comment if the Max, Marko, Horner, and Red Bull haters didn't berate and denigrate their fans. There's been accusations of cheating with flex wings, tire pressures and engine performance upgrades. Max having the superior car so it being his championship to lose. The underhandedness and arrogance of fans of a 7 time world championship winning outfit as if their achievements are their own exudes from their comments and stance. I'm just calling it out as the other side sees it. The repeated Goat comments is a good example of this. We get it.
Turn that around with Max’s name and Red Bull there instead of Lewis and Mercedes and it’s like looking in a mirror.

No ones views is going to be changed by these histrionics and it’s time this thread was locked.

Bill
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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The media keep telling us that the clash between these two drivers has been long time coming in other word they are implying that max having doing nefarious things to Lewis therefore he should seek retribution or some form of justice .from my own observation Lewis had three bad starts and Max passed him legitimately bumping tires along the way but nothing dramatic but for the most part Max had gone about his business quietly with no lewis in sight while winning many races since Monaco.
the showman lewis found it difficult to stomach being made second rate in front of his adoring fans ,watching Max draped in that green garbage speaking like a king in front of his "fans ' send him into a tail spin .they is a psychological aspect to these Lewis is used to being center of attention but no more.these sense of entitlement is a problem Rbr winning not a crime is just competition Merc need to solve there car like they did with divers professionally.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:01 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:37 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:34 am
This forum went downhill when Mercedes started to lose their dominance. Now that RedBull Honda is a real threat, lots of people have gone on the defensive here.
Stop trying to insult forum members. You do your arguments no favours by such behaviour.
It takes two to tango, like Toto said.
I wouldn't leave such a comment if the Max, Marko, Horner, and Red Bull haters didn't berate and denigrate their fans. There's been accusations of cheating with flex wings, tire pressures and engine performance upgrades. Max having the superior car so it being his championship to lose. The underhandedness and arrogance of fans of a 7 time world championship winning outfit as if their achievements are their own exudes from their comments and stance. I'm just calling it out as the other side sees it. The repeated Goat comments is a good example of this. We get it.
None of the allegations of cheating by the team are insults of the fans are they?. Unless those fans are so emotionally involved that they take such things personally, of course. That's a problem for those fans, quite frankly.

If any Mercedes / Hamilton fans behave as if they have won the titles themselves then they also have a problem. But don't insult all because of the failings of a few.

If people are so invested in a motor race that they resort to lashing out with insults then they really need to step back and relax. It's not a healthy state of mind and will just lead to stress and anger. It's just a motor race and it really doesn't matter. Yes, we can enjoy a discussion about it, but don't get so emotionally involved that it makes one lose perspective. 8)
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Bill wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:10 am
The media keep telling us that the clash between these two drivers has been long time coming in other word they are implying that max having doing nefarious things to Lewis therefore he should seek retribution or some form of justice .from my own observation Lewis had three bad starts and Max passed him legitimately bumping tires along the way but nothing dramatic but for the most part Max had gone about his business quietly with no lewis in sight while winning many races since Monaco.
the showman lewis found it difficult to stomach being made second rate in front of his adoring fans ,watching Max draped in that green garbage speaking like a king in front of his "fans ' send him into a tail spin .they is a psychological aspect to these Lewis is used to being center of attention but no more.these sense of entitlement is a problem Rbr winning not a crime is just competition Merc need to solve there car like they did with divers professionally.
The media need to create a story of tension etc. in order to sell their output. That's nothing new and should be ignored.

Lewis doesn't like losing? Wow, that's a shock. None of them like losing. Max doesn't like it any more than Lewis does.

All the other stuff about centre of attention, etc., well that's your views of the man.

As for sense of entitlement, well, that goes through Red Bull as much as Mercedes if it goes anywhere. But it's not relevant to the race or the incident that has filled so many pages in this thread.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:58 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:42 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:34 am
Plenty of overtakes have been carried out at Copse Corner (Club is the slow corner between Vale and the start line straight). Don't fall for Horner's histrionics about no one overtaking there. Also, the 51g impact thing is also irrelevant and just more of Horner's histrionics.
You really hate Horner, it's somewhat entertaining.

In any case, he said "you don't stick a wheel up the inside" which is not the same as "no overtaking" (obviously).
I dislike the histrionics. It was showboating to try to get a different outcome.
I can take him or leave him. Toto, Horner, they are all peas of the same pod. They all build a case in the court of public opinion in order to influence the result.

You're a native English speaker - all I'm saying is that "sticking a wheel up the inside" conveys both the recklessness or intentionality that Horner/Marko are playing to here. That's the argument they are making. Not "you cant overtake there". He's not so stupid as to say a 100% literally untrue sentence "no one overtakes at Copse".

(edit: and again, to repeat, I think this was a racing incident. either driver could have yielded, neither did in order to prove a point. this is the Joylon and Karun position and I agree with it)

Kingshark
Kingshark
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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The more I think about it, the more this incident reminds me of Spa 2014.

Rosberg lost most of his wheel to wheel duels against Hamilton in 2014. Hamilton pushed him off the track numerous times in Bahrain and also on the final lap in Hungary. That is why in Belgium, Rosberg finally decided that that he had enough and he wanted to be tough. Unfortunately, his determination to be tough resulted in an accident for which he was to blame. It helped him in the championship, but the court of public opinion turned against him.

Verstappen has been bullying and schooling Hamilton this season. Hamilton finally decided to be tough, but it results in an accident for which he is to blame. Hamilton has benefited from it for now, but outside of the UK the anti-Hamilton sentiment will be growing. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him booed heavily in the next few races.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:18 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:58 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:42 am


You really hate Horner, it's somewhat entertaining.

In any case, he said "you don't stick a wheel up the inside" which is not the same as "no overtaking" (obviously).
I dislike the histrionics. It was showboating to try to get a different outcome.
I can take him or leave him. Toto, Horner, they are all peas of the same pod. They all build a case in the court of public opinion in order to influence the result.

You're a native English speaker - all I'm saying is that "sticking a wheel up the inside" conveys both the recklessness or intentionality that Horner/Marko are playing to here. That's the argument they are making. Not "you cant overtake there". He's not so stupid as to say a 100% literally untrue sentence "no one overtakes at Copse".
I'm fairly sure he did say that no one overtakes there during one of his interviews. But if he didn't then mea culpa.

And I agree about the intent of Horner / Marko. They're playing to the gallery. I'm disappointed that the interviewers just let it all be said unchallenged, but I guess they're loving the situation. There's lots of articles to write / pieces to camera for them over this for days/weeks to come. Yum, yum!

The reality is that if this was any other two drivers this year, there'd be hardly a word said about it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Kingshark wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:26 am
Hamilton has benefited from it for now, but outside of the UK the anti-Hamilton sentiment will be growing. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him booed heavily in the next few races.
Hamilton is used to being booed. He's had it in some countries each time they race there. Booing and other noises. If he's being booed whilst on the top step, he won't give two hoots.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Lewis was very angry (in front of the Sky camera) because Max hit him. Max showed no respect at all!
Max should have pulled over, like he is used to from everyone! He called Max very, very aggressive.
Max has 0 penalty points on his licence. Why would that be?

In fact, this is already at least the 9th time Lewis has hit someone's rear tire with his front tyre, thus knocking them out of the race and giving the competitor less/no points.
He used that trick very often during his karting days, only there the consequences were not as bad.
He has mastered this trick to perfection, so that he always gets away with it, damage-wise and point-wise.
He knows exactly where and when to use such a manoeuvre and no one in the race management notices!

Lewis realises that he cannot beat Max in a fair way, so this is the way to go. I hope the eyes of the race committee open for once, because with such ridiculous penalties for Lewis' tricks, he will do it again next time.

Now, Max's health seems to have ended reasonably well. However, that impact of 51G can have repercussions in the body later on, but how will it end with Max next time? Lewis is definitely going to continue this if not intervened! Hold my breath!

f1jcw
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:35 am
Lewis was very angry (in front of the Sky camera) because Max hit him. Max showed no respect at all!
Max should have pulled over, like he is used to from everyone! He called Max very, very aggressive.
Max has 0 penalty points on his licence. Why would that be?

In fact, this is already at least the 9th time Lewis has hit someone's rear tire with his front tyre, thus knocking them out of the race and giving the competitor less/no points.
He used that trick very often during his karting days, only there the consequences were not as bad.
He has mastered this trick to perfection, so that he always gets away with it, damage-wise and point-wise.
He knows exactly where and when to use such a manoeuvre and no one in the race management notices!

Lewis realises that he cannot beat Max in a fair way, so this is the way to go. I hope the eyes of the race committee open for once, because with such ridiculous penalties for Lewis' tricks, he will do it again next time.

Now, Max's health seems to have ended reasonably well. However, that impact of 51G can have repercussions in the body later on, but how will it end with Max next time? Lewis is definitely going to continue this if not intervened! Hold my breath!
And Max is such a innocent party, never does anything wrong, he driving is elegant and never forces anyone of or anything.

I think you are letting your support for Max go to your head. Max has a history of forcing people of the road or get out of my way, the fact that there hasn't been a accident is because people have got out of the way, this time he got his deserts, and needs to suck it up and look at his driving.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:35 am
Lewis was very angry (in front of the Sky camera) because Max hit him. Max showed no respect at all!
Max should have pulled over, like he is used to from everyone! He called Max very, very aggressive.
Max has 0 penalty points on his licence. Why would that be?

In fact, this is already at least the 9th time Lewis has hit someone's rear tire with his front tyre, thus knocking them out of the race and giving the competitor less/no points.
He used that trick very often during his karting days, only there the consequences were not as bad.
He has mastered this trick to perfection, so that he always gets away with it, damage-wise and point-wise.
He knows exactly where and when to use such a manoeuvre and no one in the race management notices!

Lewis realises that he cannot beat Max in a fair way, so this is the way to go. I hope the eyes of the race committee open for once, because with such ridiculous penalties for Lewis' tricks, he will do it again next time.

Now, Max's health seems to have ended reasonably well. However, that impact of 51G can have repercussions in the body later on, but how will it end with Max next time? Lewis is definitely going to continue this if not intervened! Hold my breath!
:shock:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:15 am

Your wrong on Max having to concede the position because all the trajectories show Max making the corner and it was Lewis going wide which he actually did even after the contact with Max. If Lewis goes wide after making contact then imagine where he would have ended up if Max did back out and allowed Lewis to have the corner.
How wrong is this part!

Firstly there was a high chance Max wasn't staying within track limits. Reason being, he got to Copse with the speed he was doing, he turned in, then he opened the steering as he realised Lewis was actually still there. Then re applied the lock. He wasnt going to make the apex because of this, but he was carrying the speed that would require the apex to be hit. If you ever get chance on a track (in a kart or car) or even on a decent sim try taking a corner on your limit so your using all of the track width. Then do it again with the same speed but after your initial turn in, open the wheel up, and then see if you still make the corner.

Secondly Lewis went wide after the contact, the contact caused him to go wider, the contact didn't keep him on a tighter line. 1 part was becasue the contact straightened the front wheels of the Mercedes for a brief moment, and secondly it upset the balance and lightly unloaded the outside tyres losing him grip.
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