2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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RZS10
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:51 pm
Still you expect a lot from VER to avoid contact, whilst he technically complied with the regulations.
Oh i don't expect anything from anyone tbh, just wanted to point out that the "they would have crashed anyways" line of thought isn't necessarily right and a that a slight adjustment to their approach (from either driver, really) could have prevented what happened.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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zibby43 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:07 pm
Honda engine boss on the incident:

“I think it was a racing incident because both drivers were also on each other's heels in all the previous corners, but the other driver is a seven-time champion,"

the Japanese chief said.
=D> =D> :wink:

Arigatooooo!!!

Agreed!

From the Honda man himself!
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Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:44 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:51 pm
Still you expect a lot from VER to avoid contact, whilst he technically complied with the regulations.
Oh i don't expect anything from anyone tbh, just wanted to point out that the "they would have crashed anyways" line of thought isn't necessarily right and a that a slight adjustment to their approach (from either driver, really) could have prevented what happened.
Yeah I agree on that aswell now. VER had more to lose aswell. His mindset was not the right one, even though he was not at blame for the contact imo (also the opinion the FIA stewards share). This is because he technically complied with the sporting regulations (leaving the required amount of space throughout the entire corner).

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 pm


Still, he acted like it was 100% HAM corner and VER had to yield, no matter what.

He forgot to mention VER left the car width (which the defending party on the outside is obliged to) and HAM understeered wide, and thus initiated the contact.

I get why he does not touch upon this but there is a clear reason why the penalty was awarded to HAM and this is perfectly in accordance with the rulebook.
I personally have no issue with the space that Max left. He is good on that! No problemo!

The issue is when he turns in!! Just why, for Allah's sake?! He had acres of land on his left side. He could have turned in later and hit Lewis with the switch-over. Or, he could have hung on the outside and forced a penalty on Lewis if Lewis punts him off.

So. My conclusion is that Max made a tiny error and paid a big price for it. I don't care about the space or the Apex. That had nothing to do with why they crashed. They crashed because it's two rivals scrapping to cut each other off.
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theblackangus
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Not picking on anyone (definitely not you Fnatic1), but I see alot of people saying "The stewards agree".
Isnt the constant complaint that the stewards are so inconsistent they are useless?
So playing the "the stewards agree" cards just seems like a strawman.

Carry on!

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:51 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 pm


Still, he acted like it was 100% HAM corner and VER had to yield, no matter what.

He forgot to mention VER left the car width (which the defending party on the outside is obliged to) and HAM understeered wide, and thus initiated the contact.

I get why he does not touch upon this but there is a clear reason why the penalty was awarded to HAM and this is perfectly in accordance with the rulebook.
I personally have no issue with the space that Max left. He is good on that! No problemo!

The issue is when he turns in!! Just why, for Allah's sake?! He had acres of land on his left side. He could have turned in later and hit Lewis with the switch-over. Or, he could have hung on the outside and forced a penalty on Lewis if Lewis punts him off.

So. My conclusion is that Max made a tiny error and paid a big price for it. I don't care about the space or the Apex. That had nothing to do with why they crashed. They crashed because it's two rivals scrapping to cut each other off.
I can’t talk for Max, but I think he deemed the space he gave to be sufficient. He was aware HAM was alongside, hence he gave a car width, otherwise he would have decided to clip the apex.

I think he didn’t take into account that HAM could misjudge it as he understeered.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Can someone provide me the data that Ham understeered? Wheel speed and tire temp data would reveal that.

His car was still turning to the apex, just Max turned in more aggressively as noted by Charles, who is the only one in the world who had a front row seat.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:00 am
Can someone provide me the data that Ham understeered? Wheel speed and tire temp data would reveal that.

His car was still turning to the apex, just Max turned in more aggressively as noted by Charles, who is the only one in the world who had a front row seat.
We don’t have access to MoTeC or other telemetry tools. Not sure if F1 TV PRO provides some data.

I base my claim that he understeered based on own interpretation of the onboard footage (coming out off throttle and reducing a lot of speed, hence Leclerc overtook him on the exit), as well as it has been acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jenson Button, Driver61 etc.
Last edited by Fnatic1 on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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A racing incident, a nasty one, that likely could have been avoided. To me that is why people keep talking about this. Incidents like this highlight our mortality, and the risks race car drivers take when they get in that cockpit. It's a very charged topic because like a protective parent we don't want anything to happen to the other half of the star attraction.
Saishū kōnā

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:19 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:13 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 pm


Still, he acted like it was 100% HAM corner and VER had to yield, no matter what.

He forgot to mention VER left the car width (which the defending party on the outside is obliged to) and HAM understeered wide, and thus initiated the contact.

I get why he does not touch upon this but there is a clear reason why the penalty was awarded to HAM and this is perfectly in accordance with the rulebook.
I don’t know if I saw the same video, but “no matter what”? He stated “you have to make the corner”, and as he was pointing out, he did.
If the FIA guidelines are as Allison say they are, I can believe his conviction that it wasn’t Hamilton’s fault.
Plus, I don’t see on the onboard “understeering into Verstappen”, but I might be missing something. I only see the slight understeer you have in a high speed corner while trail braking (especially with high fuel loads). No smoke, no opening up the steering to let the car grip again, no corrections…
He forgot to mention there’s a car alongside, technically slightly ahead, who was perfectly entitled to take that corner.

There’s clear evidence HAM understeered, hence he came out of the throttle.

Here’s the onboard:
It seems you are not entirely sure of what understeer is? I'm willing to help.

Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underst ... _oversteer

By the way... How did you tell Hamilton was understeering and he stayed in a nearly straight line? :D You have to share with me some of your stash bro... :mrgreen:
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Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:05 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:19 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:13 pm


I don’t know if I saw the same video, but “no matter what”? He stated “you have to make the corner”, and as he was pointing out, he did.
If the FIA guidelines are as Allison say they are, I can believe his conviction that it wasn’t Hamilton’s fault.
Plus, I don’t see on the onboard “understeering into Verstappen”, but I might be missing something. I only see the slight understeer you have in a high speed corner while trail braking (especially with high fuel loads). No smoke, no opening up the steering to let the car grip again, no corrections…
He forgot to mention there’s a car alongside, technically slightly ahead, who was perfectly entitled to take that corner.

There’s clear evidence HAM understeered, hence he came out of the throttle.

Here’s the onboard:
It seems you are not entirely sure of what understeer is? I'm willing to help.

Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underst ... _oversteer

By the way... How did you tell Hamilton was understeering and he stayed in a nearly straight line? :D You have to share with me some of your stash bro... :mrgreen:
I base my claim that he understeered based on own interpretation of the onboard footage (coming out off throttle and reducing a lot of speed, hence Leclerc overtook him on the exit), as well as it has been acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jenson Button, Driver61 etc.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:56 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:51 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:06 pm


Still, he acted like it was 100% HAM corner and VER had to yield, no matter what.

He forgot to mention VER left the car width (which the defending party on the outside is obliged to) and HAM understeered wide, and thus initiated the contact.

I get why he does not touch upon this but there is a clear reason why the penalty was awarded to HAM and this is perfectly in accordance with the rulebook.
I personally have no issue with the space that Max left. He is good on that! No problemo!

The issue is when he turns in!! Just why, for Allah's sake?! He had acres of land on his left side. He could have turned in later and hit Lewis with the switch-over. Or, he could have hung on the outside and forced a penalty on Lewis if Lewis punts him off.

So. My conclusion is that Max made a tiny error and paid a big price for it. I don't care about the space or the Apex. That had nothing to do with why they crashed. They crashed because it's two rivals scrapping to cut each other off.
I can’t talk for Max, but I think he deemed the space he gave to be sufficient. He was aware HAM was alongside, hence he gave a car width, otherwise he would have decided to clip the apex.

I think he didn’t take into account that HAM could misjudge it as he understeered.
He may have “clipped the apex”… Everyone talks about missing the apex… But neither driver had yet reached the apex of the turn… If there is one thing that amazes me about this generation F1 cars is that the amount of grip they have allows them to take turns in a way on angles and speed that we usually wouldn’t imagine is possible

Fnatic1
Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:56 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:51 pm


I personally have no issue with the space that Max left. He is good on that! No problemo!

The issue is when he turns in!! Just why, for Allah's sake?! He had acres of land on his left side. He could have turned in later and hit Lewis with the switch-over. Or, he could have hung on the outside and forced a penalty on Lewis if Lewis punts him off.

So. My conclusion is that Max made a tiny error and paid a big price for it. I don't care about the space or the Apex. That had nothing to do with why they crashed. They crashed because it's two rivals scrapping to cut each other off.
I can’t talk for Max, but I think he deemed the space he gave to be sufficient. He was aware HAM was alongside, hence he gave a car width, otherwise he would have decided to clip the apex.

I think he didn’t take into account that HAM could misjudge it as he understeered.
He may have “clipped the apex”… Everyone talks about missing the apex… But neither driver had yet reached the apex of the turn… If there is one thing that amazes me about this generation F1 cars is that the amount of grip they have allows them to take turns in a way on angles and speed that we usually wouldn’t imagine is possible
I think the line he took was not ideal, he definitely left some margin on the inside for HAM.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Exactly. If you’re understeering, you’re going in a straight line. Lewis’ car was still digging in and arcing to the apex that they both never reached.

Max just turned in more relative to Lewis in 1) an attempt to make the corner 2) slam the door on Lewis.

They both were feeling the effects of aero from the other car. If Max carried more speed than Lewis and turned in harder, that points to evidence that Lewis was yet to be understeering.

I’ve races cars, dirt bikes, and karts, I know what understeer feels like in all of them.
Last edited by Hoffman900 on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:08 am
SmallSoldier wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:56 pm


I can’t talk for Max, but I think he deemed the space he gave to be sufficient. He was aware HAM was alongside, hence he gave a car width, otherwise he would have decided to clip the apex.

I think he didn’t take into account that HAM could misjudge it as he understeered.
He may have “clipped the apex”… Everyone talks about missing the apex… But neither driver had yet reached the apex of the turn… If there is one thing that amazes me about this generation F1 cars is that the amount of grip they have allows them to take turns in a way on angles and speed that we usually wouldn’t imagine is possible
I think the line he took was not ideal, he definitely left some margin on the inside for HAM.
But so did Max to the outside. He was half a car width, at least, over to the right, as compared to his qualifying run.

The digital recreation shows they were both offline and carrying too much speed. The driver behind two drivers doing that is always going to be the winner in that situation (and he was).
Last edited by Hoffman900 on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.