2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

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Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:10 am
Exactly. If you’re understeering, you’re going in a straight line. Lewis’ car was still digging in and arcing to the apex that they both never reached.

Max just turned in more relative to Lewis in 1) an attempt to make the corner 2) slam the door on Lewis.

They both were feeling the effects of aero from the other car. If Max carried more speed than Lewis and turned in harder, that points to evidence that Lewis was yet to be understeering.

I’ve races cars, dirt bikes, and karts, I know what understeer feels like in all of them.
Kinda amazed that ex F1 drivers (Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok, Martin Brundle) all acknowledged the understeer.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:39 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:33 pm
Fnatic1 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:01 pm


I just feel like you demand a lot from the defending party to change his line, because the attacking party is braking too late or is taking too much speed into the corner.

The thing is VER gave the required space, HAM didn’t make use of it as he kinda misjudged it.
Ignoring the right or wrong, who should or shouldn't, etc. Here's a simple question: who had most to lose from a touch in a high speed corner? The guy on the inside or the guy on the outside?

It comes down to the maxim "live to fight another day". The sensible thing to do is stay away from the car on the inside. Turning in on him "because I'm in the right" just results in a DNF.

Hamilton had the line in the corner earlier in the lap - exactly the same situation as in the Copse incident. And Hamilton knew that turning in was going to have him in the gravel on the outside of the corner. So he gave lots of space. Not just "a car's width" but most of the track.

Come the same situation a few seconds later, Max did what? He turned in regardless of where Hamilton might have been. That's just knuckleheaded stupidity. That's "I'm coming, get out of the way". That gets you in the gravel / wall.

Irrespective of what Hamilton did, Max should have assumed the worst case outcome.

He has now seen a significant lead reduced by 25 points. It would have been 26 points if Perez hadn't played the good team mate for him.

That's the simple fact - it doesn't matter how right you are if you have more to lose in the argument.
I agree that VER approach to this race was not the right one, considering his lead in the championship. I never said anything otherwise.

This doesn’t mean there’s someone more to blame for the crash, which we are discussing.
It means there's more than one person "to blame". Even the stewards acknowledged that Hamilton wasn't the only one to blame.
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Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:13 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:10 am
Exactly. If you’re understeering, you’re going in a straight line. Lewis’ car was still digging in and arcing to the apex that they both never reached.

Max just turned in more relative to Lewis in 1) an attempt to make the corner 2) slam the door on Lewis.

They both were feeling the effects of aero from the other car. If Max carried more speed than Lewis and turned in harder, that points to evidence that Lewis was yet to be understeering.

I’ve races cars, dirt bikes, and karts, I know what understeer feels like in all of them.
Kinda amazed that ex F1 drivers (Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok, Martin Brundle) all acknowledged the understeer.
And there are others who don’t.

They’re all opinions and absent data, it’s just a guess.

Every race car driver I know thinks Max was a doofus for not yielding that corner with the championship lead he has. Even if he came out second, I would have still tipped him for the win

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:15 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:13 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:10 am
Exactly. If you’re understeering, you’re going in a straight line. Lewis’ car was still digging in and arcing to the apex that they both never reached.

Max just turned in more relative to Lewis in 1) an attempt to make the corner 2) slam the door on Lewis.

They both were feeling the effects of aero from the other car. If Max carried more speed than Lewis and turned in harder, that points to evidence that Lewis was yet to be understeering.

I’ve races cars, dirt bikes, and karts, I know what understeer feels like in all of them.
Kinda amazed that ex F1 drivers (Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok, Martin Brundle) all acknowledged the understeer.
And there are others who don’t.

They’re all opinions and absent data, it’s just a guess.

Every race car driver I know thinks Max was a doofus for not yielding that corner with the championship lead he has. Even if he came out second, I would have still tipped him for the win
Could you name who? To which people you refer to with “others”?

Again, as I said before, I also do not agree with the mindset VER had this race.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:11 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:08 am
SmallSoldier wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am


He may have “clipped the apex”… Everyone talks about missing the apex… But neither driver had yet reached the apex of the turn… If there is one thing that amazes me about this generation F1 cars is that the amount of grip they have allows them to take turns in a way on angles and speed that we usually wouldn’t imagine is possible
I think the line he took was not ideal, he definitely left some margin on the inside for HAM.
But so did Max to the outside. He was half a car width, at least, over to the right, as compared to his qualifying run.

The digital recreation shows they were both offline and carrying too much speed. The driver behind two drivers doing that is always going to be the winner in that situation (and he was).
A car on the inside, in this case HAM, naturally has to brake earlier for a corner as he has a smaller radius (basic physics).

Footage didn’t really show HAM reduced speed earlier than VER.
Last edited by Fnatic1 on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:15 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:13 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:10 am
Exactly. If you’re understeering, you’re going in a straight line. Lewis’ car was still digging in and arcing to the apex that they both never reached.

Max just turned in more relative to Lewis in 1) an attempt to make the corner 2) slam the door on Lewis.

They both were feeling the effects of aero from the other car. If Max carried more speed than Lewis and turned in harder, that points to evidence that Lewis was yet to be understeering.

I’ve races cars, dirt bikes, and karts, I know what understeer feels like in all of them.
Kinda amazed that ex F1 drivers (Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok, Martin Brundle) all acknowledged the understeer.
And there are others who don’t.

They’re all opinions and absent data, it’s just a guess.

Every race car driver I know thinks Max was a doofus for not yielding that corner with the championship lead he has. Even if he came out second, I would have still tipped him for the win
On that I agree with you. Neither driver wanted to yield so it's hard to call it anything but a racing incident.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am

I base my claim that he understeered based on own interpretation of the onboard footage (coming out off throttle and reducing a lot of speed, hence Leclerc overtook him on the exit), as well as it has been acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jenson Button, Driver61 etc.
He would have understeered is what they mean. And Max would have understeered too, because both of them were going in too fast.

But up to the point whey the cars collide significant understeer just couldn't happen then. Too little rotation of the car for understeer to be a factor IMO. Like what? 2 inches more and Max would have stayed in front... But he would have definitely been off the track on exit.
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Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:27 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am

I base my claim that he understeered based on own interpretation of the onboard footage (coming out off throttle and reducing a lot of speed, hence Leclerc overtook him on the exit), as well as it has been acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jenson Button, Driver61 etc.
He would have understeered is what they mean. And Max would have understeered too, because both of them were going in too fast.

But up to the point whey the cars collide significant understeer just couldn't happen then. Too little rotation of the car for understeer to be a factor IMO. Like what? 2 inches more and Max would have stayed in front... But he would have definitely been off the track on exit.
Could you explain me why HAM missed the inside of the corner then?

Oh wait he carried more speed than the radius allowed.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:33 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:27 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am

I base my claim that he understeered based on own interpretation of the onboard footage (coming out off throttle and reducing a lot of speed, hence Leclerc overtook him on the exit), as well as it has been acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jenson Button, Driver61 etc.
He would have understeered is what they mean. And Max would have understeered too, because both of them were going in too fast.

But up to the point whey the cars collide significant understeer just couldn't happen then. Too little rotation of the car for understeer to be a factor IMO. Like what? 2 inches more and Max would have stayed in front... But he would have definitely been off the track on exit.
Could you explain me why HAM missed the inside of the corner then?

Oh wait he carried more speed than the radius allowed.

To compromize Max's line. Simple as that.

On the inside line you can dictate the corner. Apex means nothing. Ask Nico Rosberg Austria 2016.

Look what the driveron the inside can do. Rules have changed slightly now that you must leave space even for the ouside driver... But not if he is not significant along side.

Last edited by PlatinumZealot on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hoffman900
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:33 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:27 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:06 am

I base my claim that he understeered based on own interpretation of the onboard footage (coming out off throttle and reducing a lot of speed, hence Leclerc overtook him on the exit), as well as it has been acknowledged by Karun Chandhok, Jenson Button, Driver61 etc.
He would have understeered is what they mean. And Max would have understeered too, because both of them were going in too fast.

But up to the point whey the cars collide significant understeer just couldn't happen then. Too little rotation of the car for understeer to be a factor IMO. Like what? 2 inches more and Max would have stayed in front... But he would have definitely been off the track on exit.
Could you explain me why HAM missed the inside of the corner then?

Oh wait he carried more speed than the radius allowed.
1) they both hadn’t even gotten to the apex yet.
2) Max was also carrying too much speed for the radius of the corner

Logic test…

If Lewis, as RedBull claims, carried his most speed all race into the corner, and Max had a higher entry speed than Lewis, then Max being offline (further track right) and turning in later than his qualifying lap, meant he too was carrying more speed than the corner allowed.

Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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One way to put all of this to bed now is to watch the latest race debrief from Mercedes where Allison clearly explain the rules. Those debriefs are quite informative in other areas as well.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:40 am
To compromize Max's line. Simple as that.
Whilst Max didn’t compromise Lewis’ line as he left the required space as per sporting regulations.

So now you’re implying Lewis caused the crash.
Last edited by Fnatic1 on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:46 am
One way to put all of this to bed now is to watch the latest race debrief from Mercedes where Allison clearly explain the rules. Those debriefs are quite informative in other areas as well.
One side of the story. There are some interesting takes in that, but it does not consider all sides of the story for obvious reasons.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:40 am
To compromize Max's line. Simple as that.
Whilst Max didn’t compromise Lewis’ line as he left space.

So now you’re implying Lewis caused the crash.
I amended my post with a video. So check my previous post.

Nope. They both had a right to the corner but the inside man obviously has more advantage and can dictate the line as long as he leaves space for the other guy to make it out on exit (if alongside). That's why Lewis wanted the inside so bad. Imagine a giving that up that advantage to a man like Max?! Never.
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Fnatic1
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Re: 2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 -18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:53 am
Fnatic1 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:47 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:40 am
To compromize Max's line. Simple as that.
Whilst Max didn’t compromise Lewis’ line as he left space.

So now you’re implying Lewis caused the crash.
I amended my post with a video. So check my previous post.

Nope. They both had a right to the corner but the inside man obviously has more advantage and can dictate the line as long as he leaves space for the other guy to make it out on exit (if alongside). That's why Lewis wanted the inside so bad. Imagine a giving that up that advantage to a man like Max?! Never.
Direct quote from your post:

“Rules have changed slightly now that you must leave space even for the ouside driver... But not if he is not significant along side.”

Max was alongside, even slightly ahead.