Mercedes AMG F1 W03

[Pandabeer]

Ross Brawn said today at german TV after the race...

That next race they will have new parts and bigger update package.

That's great. I wonder if a new exhaust is on the cards? Lets hope they are closer to solving the tyre issues as well.

I think after today that current exhaust is OK? The difference there I guess is small now. From the best to the worst exhaust around 0,25 sec/lap?

Why you say the current exhaust is "OK"? Because Nico won the race? If there is anything Merc can improve on the exhaust layout, then i highly think they will improve in this area.

[WhiteBlue]

I claim the Blown Front Wing System is of no value.

I base this observation using the early race pace of both cars. At a time when neither car was using their DRS system, they maintain the same performance advantage that was demonstrated during qualifying.

Is this an over simplification? If so why?

Brian

Your opinion is known, but you have no data to support it. The DDRS system allows them to run high downforce which helps when you are in clean air at the front. The lack of tyre degradation was the key to having race pace as well. Nico could have been in trouble if he had been trapped in a train like many others were during the race. His straight line speed wasn't very good and he might have wasted good tyres to no effect. It happened to several drivers today.

[Pandabeer]

I claim the Blown Front Wing System is of no value.

I base this observation using the early race pace of both cars. At a time when neither car was using their DRS system, they maintain the same performance advantage that was demonstrated during qualifying.

Is this an over simplification? If so why?

Brian

I don't think the early race pace as anything to do with the DDRS. Today, Merc just managed to get a good setup for this track and to get the tyres in the right working window. The W03 basically is a brilliant car and it's really competitive. If they now keep up with the development of their car compared to other teams, it's really a winning car, as long as the tyres work, as showed today.

[scarlet]

Button was just on the cusp of Schumi's wake and couldn't get any closer enough for DRS due to the dirty air disadvantage.

This is the perfect example: Why didn't Button pull up on Schumacher? They both lacked DRS, but Schumacher also lacked the so effective DDRS! Remember it was the all that better balance from the DDRS during Qualifying that got Schumacher on the front row.

Brian

My point is that Schumi had clean air advantage over Button because Rosberg had pulled a much bigger gap using his clean air advantage on the first few laps. This is a natural effect in the first few laps, and exactly what happened with Button and Hamilton in Aus.

So McLaren may have had a relative race pace advantage which was masked by the dirty air off the back of Schumi's car. (Plus Button can be slow to get heat into his tyres at the start when following others).

[ivand911]

I think after today that current exhaust is OK? The difference there I guess is small now. From the best to the worst exhaust around 0,25 sec/lap?

Why you say the current exhaust is "OK"? Because Nico won the race? If there is anything Merc can improve on the exhaust layout, then i highly think they will improve in this area.

Yeah, I think they know what is better for the car and what they have to do or not? The thing is we don't know what is better. Which exhaust. Do you? Last year EBD can give you 1sec, this year you can gain maximum I think 0,25sec(from best to worst exhaust). Lets say in MGP case 0,15sec? Is it worth? Will other design work on your car? Will you not sacrify more to get this 0,15sec?

[hardingfv32]

Your opinion is known, but you have no data to support it.

I offer the competition between the 2nd and 3rd place cars during the early stage of the race as my data point.

The DDRS system allows them to run high downforce which helps when you are in clean air at the front. The lack of tyre degradation was the key to having race pace as well.

If they were setup for more downforce ... related to the use of DDRS ... then the McLaren should have been able to catch them, as it could not be setup for more downforce not having the DDRS.

There is no evidence that the DDRS helped the tyre degradation issue. It did not help in previous races. The team simply developed the correct car setup finally.

Brian

[raymondu999]

If they were setup for more downforce ... related to the use of DDRS ... then the McLaren should have been able to catch them, as it could not be setup for more downforce not having the DDRS.

Or The McLaren then didn't have sufficient downforce.

[Dragonfly]

Then the logical answer is that the other teams have undeveloped the correct setup.
At this stage after only 3 races one of which a complete mess I don't think any team has a reliable setup data and a predictable tire behavior.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

That's great. I wonder if a new exhaust is on the cards? Lets hope they are closer to solving the tyre issues as well.

I'm not sure it matters that much. I think Mercedes(and Lotus) are proof that the exhaust and getting it to the floor isn't that important and any gains from it are negligible.

[WhiteBlue]

If they were setup for more downforce ... related to the use of DDRS ... then the McLaren should have been able to catch them, as it could not be setup for more downforce not having the DDRS.

There is no evidence that the DDRS helped the tyre degradation issue. It did not help in previous races. The team simply developed the correct car setup finally.

Brian

So we are stuck with opinions again.

[hardingfv32]

So McLaren may have had a relative race pace advantage which was masked by the dirty air off the back of Schumi's car. (Plus Button can be slow to get heat into his tyres at the start when following others).

I do not think dirty air is an issue. You do not see it as a problem for other cars further back in the field trying to pass each other. You do not see cars laying back and making surges to attempt passes. Quite often you will see tight trains of cars.

Brian

[WhiteBlue]

Clean air is a big issue IMO. Merc must balance straight line speed against downforce. This time they cut it very fine in terms of straight line speed. If Nico had been caught a lot more in "trains" he would have been in trouble with his straight line speed. So it is essential to have pole and keep it. And having pole was essentially achieved by the superior DDRS.

[hardingfv32]

Or The McLaren then didn't have sufficient downforce.

Of coarse my assumption is that the cars started as they Qualified except for fuel load. That the McLaren should of held pace while the Mercedes lacking the advantage of the DDRS would lose performance and fall back to McLaren. Seems like a very valid test of the effectiveness of the DDRS.
Just about as few variables as we are going to get until a team does a Friday with only one car using a DDRS.

Brian

[raymondu999]

Or The McLaren then didn't have sufficient downforce.

Of coarse my assumption is that the cars started as they Qualified except for fuel load. That the McLaren should of held pace while the Mercedes lacking the advantage of the DDRS would lose performance and fall back to McLaren. Seems like a very valid test of the effectiveness of the DDRS.
Just about as few variables as we are going to get until a team does a Friday with only one car using a DDRS.

Brian

Button was a second off Nico in Q3. He wasn't losing a second a lap at the start. It was more like 5 tenths a lap.

[Raptor22]

I said it earlier in this thread.
Each car has a set up window within which the car will perform to max potential on any given set of tyres.
For a car with a narrow window getting the set up right is more critical. For cars with a larger window it is easier to transform qualifying pace to race pace.
A few things played into Mercedes hands.
McLaren did not optimise their set up and they alluded to this throughout Saturday and before the start of the race.
Mercedes gambled on slightly different set up on Rosberg and Schumacher's cars. Michael's W03 would have been faster has it been slightly warmer, ROsberg's was set up for the conditions as they altered the setup in Q3 on Saturday. That the weather remained the same was a stroke of good fortune.

The W03 is a good car and it will win more races this season. Once the UNDERSTAND the set up required for the conditions, anticipate the conditions correctly beforehand, they will remain competitive. They just have a bigger chance of not being competitive than McLaren does.

DDRS, well its value is anyones guess because the full working of the system has never been disclosed and Mercedes essentially leave us to our own assumptions. For all we know it could be a passive and active system switching from flap blowing to flap stalling at various speeds. We simply don't know how evolved the system is.