Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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GSBellew
GSBellew
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Could they be ducting air from somewhere up front to the beam wing to increase downforce, but when the DRS opens the air exits through the holes in the rear wing end plates instead (following the path of least resistance) if I am thinking correctly this would allow them to run less wing for a given downforce level and as a consequence make the DRS more effective as activating it would give he normal DRS drag drop plus the beam wing effect drop.

I could & probably am way off but that's what I was thinking cold be going on.

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Gridlock
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Image

I'm going to try and make some friends at Petronas now, maybe not at Brackley...

"P Duct"? [-o< :twisted:
#58

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forty-two
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Gridlock wrote: I'm going to try and make some friends at Petronas now, maybe not at Brackley...

"P Duct"? [-o< :twisted:
Let me get this straight.... a Pee Duct? Sounds like some sort of urinal!

I'm with Pup on this one. Those holes in the endplates look like outlets to me, designed to bleed pressure from the system which would otherwise be blowing somewhere else.

Question is, what assistance would blowing under normal circumstances bring. The F-Duct worked by filling in the space under a wing to stall it when active hence reducing drag WHEN ACTIVE, but if this system works how I see it, we're looking for something which would add downforce when active, not shed it.

Any offers?
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Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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forty-two wrote:
Question is, what assistance would blowing under normal circumstances bring. The F-Duct worked by filling in the space under a wing to stall it when active hence reducing drag WHEN ACTIVE, but if this system works how I see it, we're looking for something which would add downforce when active, not shed it.

Any offers?
Why do you think stalling the FW wing is going to add DF?

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forty-two
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
forty-two wrote:
Question is, what assistance would blowing under normal circumstances bring. The F-Duct worked by filling in the space under a wing to stall it when active hence reducing drag WHEN ACTIVE, but if this system works how I see it, we're looking for something which would add downforce when active, not shed it.

Any offers?
Why do you think stalling the FW wing is going to add DF?
Hate to say this, but I don't, and I don't think anything I said suggested that I did.

I doubt very much that anything going on at the RW is affecting the FW, but I've been wrong before... a few times at least.

Why did you think I was in any way discussing stalling the FW?
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Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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forty-two wrote:
Hate to say this, but I don't, and I don't think anything I said suggested that I did.

I doubt very much that anything going on at the RW is affecting the FW, but I've been wrong before... a few times at least.

Why did you think I was in any way discussing stalling the FW?
Because you said this: but if this system works how I see it, we're looking for something which would add downforce when active, not shed it.

The solution presented is that air is fed from RW to FW in an effort to stall the FW.

HvA
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Marc.W wrote: Image
Your picture shows nicely how the air is pushed into the P-Duct. Specialy the top construction shows Mercedes love to detail.

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forty-two
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
forty-two wrote:
Hate to say this, but I don't, and I don't think anything I said suggested that I did.

I doubt very much that anything going on at the RW is affecting the FW, but I've been wrong before... a few times at least.

Why did you think I was in any way discussing stalling the FW?
Because you said this: but if this system works how I see it, we're looking for something which would add downforce when active, not shed it.

The solution presented is that air is fed from RW to FW in an effort to stall the FW.
That is not a solution which I subscribe to.

I was merely saying that if the system works as I and Pup suspect, when the DRS opens, it allows air to bleed out via the endplate(s), but normally would be higher pressure.

This means that under normal (i.e. DRS not active) conditons, the air would have to go somewhere else, so I asked the question, where could you send relatively high pressure air to AID downforce rather than reduce downforce (drag).
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Tatsu333
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
I was merely saying that if the system works as I and Pup suspect, when the DRS opens, it allows air to bleed out via the endplate(s), but normally would be higher pressure.

This means that under normal (i.e. DRS not active) conditons, the air would have to go somewhere else, so I asked the question, where could you send relatively high pressure air to AID downforce rather than reduce downforce (drag).
To blow and increase downforce at the wings, I would think you'd either need a LOT of air blowing directly at the top surface (and there are no openings in bodywork that suggest such a solution, and really, how would you get MORE air to the top side of the wing than is already rushing at it just from driving along!), or slots blowing in parallel to the surface of the underside of the wing to use the Coanda effect to accelerate flow and increase downforce that way. The rules banning slots in the rear wing main plane and beam wing would also apply to slots aligned in this manner, I would think, so we can rule out any planes of the rear wing.

If we're ruling out the front wing being involved (which I am not, but it seems increasingly unlikely from the "evidence" we've seen so far), the diffuser would be the only other logical target in my opinion, as I sort of alluded to in my last post from yesterday. :)

Tatsu333
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Pup wrote:
n smikle wrote:I don't know how nobody saw this!
Quite a few of us have been pointing that out ever since the rumors of blown wings started up this year. But that obviously hasn't stopped some others from running with it.

That's why I think the beam wing is the only practical place for a blown wing.

Though, I'm always up for being proven wrong. If Brawn knows a way around the rule that I don't, then more power to him. And who knows, they could be doing something clever that has nothing to do with wings at all.
As noted in the article about the 2011 regulations on Scarbs' blog I linked to in my previous post, there are rules banning slots in the beam wing as well, so that is out as well, I think.

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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n smikle wrote:This is why such wing will be impossible...
The interior of the duct can be formed with facets. No radiuses. If I use enough facets I can get any shape I want and almost the same flow quality as a curved system.

Brian

hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:A senior F1 Aerodynamicist says that Mercedes are most likely blowing their "F-Duct" air onto the low pressure side of the lower wing element. I believe he means blowing on the under side of the beam wing because there are no visible slots on the under side of the main element on the RW.
Do we have any data on the performance of the beam wing?

Brian

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Uhh.. Anybody remember the mercury suspension?

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Nickel
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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forty-two wrote: I was merely saying that if the system works as I and Pup suspect, when the DRS opens, it allows air to bleed out via the endplate(s), but normally would be higher pressure.

This means that under normal (i.e. DRS not active) conditons, the air would have to go somewhere else, so I asked the question, where could you send relatively high pressure air to AID downforce rather than reduce downforce (drag).
I've been following yours and Pup's idea and thinking about it and am having trouble understanding how the holes exposed by drs activation could allow air to bleed out. The slots in the endplate are to allow vortices created by the rear wing to bleed out the endplates. This leads me to the assumption that just inboard of the endplates, air tries to move outwards (through the endplate) rather violently. Air coming out of the hole exposed by drs would need to have quite a bit of force to it no?

Just trying to keep up with an interesting train of thought.

___
___
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Joined: 09 Feb 2012, 01:51

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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hardingfv32 wrote:
n smikle wrote:This is why such wing will be impossible...
The interior of the duct can be formed with facets. No radiuses. If I use enough facets I can get any shape I want and almost the same flow quality as a curved system.

Brian
This was addressed earlier:
beelsebob wrote:
kenny5 wrote:Slot does not have to have curved edges, could be square / angled...
A square edge is just a curve with (close to) 0 radius.
and the preamble to Article 3 rules out any argument saying "yes but the radius is not supposed to be there":
Furthermore, infinite precision can be assumed on certain dimensions provided it is clear that such an assumption is not being made in order to circumvent or subvert the intention of the relevant regulation.