Mercedes AMG F1 W05

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Gearbox.
When changing gear is the clutch used or is the ignition cut? The changes are incredibly quick so I thought the boxes were like those on the twin clutch Honda VFR 1200 bike. The informed opinion here is that the F1 gearbox is nothing like that. Ignition cut works fine for upchanges but what about down shifts?

I think of AutoGyro's gearbox and it seems to me that it really would be an excellent unit to use in F1.

OO7
OO7
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:GA on Mercedes supposed 2015 turning vanes used in Brazil..

http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l349 ... 16c7d6.jpg
via AutoSport
GA was mistaken in that article, describing the turning vanes as a new development for 2015. Mercedes have been running quadruple element turning vanes for a few races now.

NewtonMeter
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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PhillipM wrote:
NewtonMeter wrote:
PhillipM wrote:Why must they? They don't even use the clutch apart from at launch.
I believe that driver not directly operate the clutch, apart from launch. But I'm certain that the clutch is still used during shifts - probably just automatically. I cant see how the gearbox lasts so long without having to use a clutch for shifting.
I would perhaps stop telling other people how things work until you've discovered that yourself then. Even most roadbikes don't use the clutch to go up through the gears.
Haha, jeez guys. I never meant to "tell' anybody how anything works. I just related how I thought something worked, based on my understanding. A misunderstanding for sure.

But I'm glad I could learn something.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool...

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Blaze1 wrote: GA was mistaken in that article, describing the turning vanes as a new development for 2015. Mercedes have been running quadruple element turning vanes for a few races now.
I looked back through the USGP pics and only saw 3 element turning vanes like below.
Image


Scarbs said the same thing regarding new 4 element turning vanes being tested in Brazil. -> Brazil Tech-AutoSport

Edit: but I see Scarbs posted pics of 4 element turning vanes back in Austin. Apologies.
Last edited by Crucial_Xtreme on Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gambler
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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I would so much like to see the inside of a "clutchless" transmission at normal speed ,then in slow motion.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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tok-tokkie wrote:Gearbox.
When changing gear is the clutch used or is the ignition cut? The changes are incredibly quick so I thought the boxes were like those on the twin clutch Honda VFR 1200 bike. The informed opinion here is that the F1 gearbox is nothing like that. Ignition cut works fine for upchanges but what about down shifts?

I think of AutoGyro's gearbox and it seems to me that it really would be an excellent unit to use in F1.
afaik .....
the F1 gearbox manipulates throttle, ignition (in a controlled 'stutter'), and fuelling
giving near-continuous drive, though the torque is eased during the change
so during shifts it does not dump mechanical power eg as frictional heat

AGs box is like the twin-clutch box in the sense that in shifting it simultaneously drives through 2 torque paths in rpm conflict
so power is wasted then as frictional heat
at least to the extent that torque is not eased

the other (non-shifting) 98% of the time is more important regarding power loss (for both gearboxes)

AGs box is surely concentrating on integration of the mgu and simpler shifting methods
a better road box for the future

NewtonMeter
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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PhillipM wrote:
NewtonMeter wrote:
PhillipM wrote:Why must they? They don't even use the clutch apart from at launch.
I believe that driver not directly operate the clutch, apart from launch. But I'm certain that the clutch is still used during shifts - probably just automatically. I cant see how the gearbox lasts so long without having to use a clutch for shifting.
I would perhaps stop telling other people how things work until you've discovered that yourself then. Even most roadbikes don't use the clutch to go up through the gears.
In reference to my previous two posts, I knew I read somewhere that the clutch is electronically controlled.

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/66
The on-board computer automatically cuts the engine, depresses the clutch and switches ratios in the blink of an eye
Also...

http://scarbsf1.com/transmissions.html
Gear selection is initiated by the driver through paddles on the steering wheel (McLaren had an early version with buttons), the electronics decide the timing of the selector drum and clutch actuation, along with ignition cutting for upshifts and throttle blipping for downshifts
But these articles are pretty old. I assumed they still work more or less the same, so my bad. Infact, Ross Brawn explaines a bit how a modern seamless shift works here (only part of the video):

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/tech ... gearboxes/

So the implication is that the modern boxes don't use the clutch during gear changes. I cannot imagine the clever engineering going on there to make these gearboxes last. The torsional loads on the gearbox shafts must be absolutely immense during the overlapping phase. How they last as long as they do, while weighing so little is beyond me.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool...

Jolle
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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I read an article in a motorcycle magazine about the honda motogp gearbox, which is also seamless nowadays. The shifting is done with special rockers and springs inside the shaft that holds the gears, a bit like a freewheel on a pushbike. when the next gear is selected, it's "locked" and the last gear goes into freewheel. This gives a bit of a "bang" (because there is a few mm give for when it catches the next rocker) but that would mean only one or two fires of the engine. I also think the drivers can select different shifting times to nurture the gearbox. For instance, if FP1,2,3 they have only power after a shift is locked, also in the race when they are on coast, in Q or when they push in a race they can go truly seamless and gain time plus stressing the gearbox.

https://cdn.rideapart.com/wp-content/up ... ockers.jpg

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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Jolle wrote:I read an article in a motorcycle magazine about the honda motogp gearbox, which is also seamless nowadays. The shifting is done with special rockers and springs inside the shaft that holds the gears, a bit like a freewheel on a pushbike. when the next gear is selected, it's "locked" and the last gear goes into freewheel. This gives a bit of a "bang" (because there is a few mm give for when it catches the next rocker) but that would mean only one or two fires of the engine. I also think the drivers can select different shifting times to nurture the gearbox. For instance, if FP1,2,3 they have only power after a shift is locked, also in the race when they are on coast, in Q or when they push in a race they can go truly seamless and gain time plus stressing the gearbox.

https://cdn.rideapart.com/wp-content/up ... ockers.jpg
Very interesting, I did not know that about the gearboxes. Thank you!
Felipe Baby!

Jolle
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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SiLo wrote:
Jolle wrote:I read an article in a motorcycle magazine about the honda motogp gearbox, which is also seamless nowadays. The shifting is done with special rockers and springs inside the shaft that holds the gears, a bit like a freewheel on a pushbike. when the next gear is selected, it's "locked" and the last gear goes into freewheel. This gives a bit of a "bang" (because there is a few mm give for when it catches the next rocker) but that would mean only one or two fires of the engine. I also think the drivers can select different shifting times to nurture the gearbox. For instance, if FP1,2,3 they have only power after a shift is locked, also in the race when they are on coast, in Q or when they push in a race they can go truly seamless and gain time plus stressing the gearbox.

https://cdn.rideapart.com/wp-content/up ... ockers.jpg
Very interesting, I did not know that about the gearboxes. Thank you!
So that means that a driver has a large influence how long a gearbox lasts and that gearbox failures sometimes is drivers pushing too hard (in the wrong settings)

I believe that Lewis has a new gearbox for the last race, and Nico, who had to push like hell the last few races, has a 5 race old one. It wouldn't surprise me if he had his gearbox in "seamless" for so long already that he has a gearbox failure... or is a half a second a lap slower than Lewis by default because he has less "seamless" time left on his gearbox.

OO7
OO7
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
Blaze1 wrote: GA was mistaken in that article, describing the turning vanes as a new development for 2015. Mercedes have been running quadruple element turning vanes for a few races now.
I looked back through the USGP pics and only saw 3 element turning vanes like below.
http://i.imgur.com/CO7jLON.jpg


Scarbs said the same thing regarding new 4 element turning vanes being tested in Brazil. -> Brazil Tech-AutoSport

Edit: but I see Scarbs posted pics of 4 element turning vanes back in Austin. Apologies.
Looking back through previous photos, the quadruple element turning vanes first appeared at the Belgian GP. I can only surmise that their introduction coincided with the final nose development, to take advantage of the improved airflow around that region.
Image

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=2400

mantikos
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Ferraripilot wrote:To the poster who stated injection pressure does not result on more power.

A higher pressure direct injection system allows the same amount of fuel to be sprayed at a finer and more controlled mist resulting in more molecules being exposed to the flame front which results in quicker ignition of all molecules which yields more torque. Higher injection pressure is indeed directly related to torque and efficiency because of the above. If the Mercedes engine were operating at a 200-300bar system which is what was conjectured they ran, then going to 500bar or thereabouts would indeed increase efficiency.
Never said that you don't get more horsepower. I said it won't give that much because (1), mercedes always had a 500 bar system. Even the BOSCH system on street cars have 500 bar. It was only unfounded rumours that they had a 300 bar system.

higher Injection pressure also allows you to pulse the injector faster with a more consistent fuel delivery.It is really for efficiency. Mercedes always had the higher pressure system anyways.
plain wrong on the Merc injector pressure - read up

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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So then...

Present the facts...

Ever since the season began this 500 bat argument has been around. Did all the necessary reading back then.

Have you?

I await your dossier.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

Matt Somers
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Blaze1 wrote:
Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
Blaze1 wrote: Looking back through previous photos, the quadruple element turning vanes first appeared at the Belgian GP. I can only surmise that their introduction coincided with the final nose development, to take advantage of the improved airflow around that region.
http://img3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Mer ... 803441.jpg

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=2400
It was indeed Spa where they were first run..

http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ ... s-wo5.html
Catch me on Twitter https://twitter.com/SomersF1 or the blog http://www.SomersF1.co.uk
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OO7
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Matt Somers wrote:It was indeed Spa where they were first run..

http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ ... s-wo5.html
Cheers Matt.

What do you make of the following article about Mercedes' sidepod (coke bottle undercut) updates: http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/42226/ ... elle-pance

I looking into this and in my opinion no such changes were made. The sidepod and coke bottle footprint that is integrated with the cars floor has remained unchanged. What I believe Mercedes have done (first introduced in Italy on race day) is increase the size of the cooling exits above the diffuser, altering their bottom profile to a wide 'v' which consumes part of the coke bottle region constricting airflow in terms of visible area (not necessarily actual mass flow area). When compared to the original version of the sidepods (first used in Barcelona), one can see this early version (which featured the smallest cooling exit area) had the largest undercut/least coke bottle constriction.