2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Lazy
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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langwadt wrote:
SiLo wrote:
Blackout wrote:It's me or the Merc and Mclaren seem to rely mainly on the Kers in the pit lane ?
I'm wondering if they are practicing using ERS to run through the pit lane so that they can save fuel for the race. Every little counts.
I don't see how it could save them anything. All the energy still has to come from the fuel, electric power used in the pit lane is just less electric power to use on the track
I'm not so sure about that, it looks to me like they might struggle to use their full ES allowance each lap, could easily be some excess to use for fuel saving.

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Jaap
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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is it me, or are the 2014 cars A LOT quicker than the 2013 cars!? Last year Vettel did a 1:36 (http://goo.gl/hIYtBw) in Bahrain, now Rosberg is doing 1:33. And people are calling the V6 slow?

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RicerDude
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Jaap wrote:is it me, or are the 2014 cars A LOT quicker than the 2013 cars!? Last year Vettel did a 1:36 (http://goo.gl/hIYtBw) in Bahrain, now Rosberg is doing 1:33. And people are calling the V6 slow?
That's the fastest lap time during the race. Pole lap time was a 1:32.2. But still the cars do seen pretty fast compared to last year considering the tires are supposed to be much harder.

Pup
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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321apex wrote:
Pup wrote:They can't have different specs, since that would mean more than one homologated engine, but that doesn't mean that Mercedes couldn't still keep the best engines for themselves. Every part has a tolerance, and one can imagine that they'd use the parts with the least deviation to build their own engines, and the parts that are closer to the limit of the allowed tolerance would go to their customers. Of course, who gets those engines might change depending on the standings at any given time.

The only way around that is if the engines are handed out at random, like the tires.
I did not have "the engine" in mind. Rather the electric power delivery or absorption.
Software is proprietary correct?

Well, need I say more? It could be a small code difference, or perhaps utilization in programming of an existing function that only MB knows about. Software code would be impossible to police.
That could work the other direction as well. Thanks to the testing for the P1, McLaren likely have more experience in tuning ERS systems than anyone else on the grid.
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Too much, imo. :wink:

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Jaap
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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RicerDude wrote:
Jaap wrote:is it me, or are the 2014 cars A LOT quicker than the 2013 cars!? Last year Vettel did a 1:36 (http://goo.gl/hIYtBw) in Bahrain, now Rosberg is doing 1:33. And people are calling the V6 slow?
That's the fastest lap time during the race. Pole lap time was a 1:32.2. But still the cars do seen pretty fast compared to last year considering the tires are supposed to be much harder.
Ahh thanks for the pole time! I think when it's time to do the Bahrain grand prix, that the lap times will be even better, thus being about as quick as a 2013 car! I love these new rules!

Gaara
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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What is the HP of the new engines? I read it's 600 + 160 for the ERS to a total of 760. Simiar to last's year. But now I read it's 900HP is that true? please can you shed some light on this?

Maxion
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Gaara wrote:What is the HP of the new engines? I read it's 600 + 160 for the ERS to a total of 760. Simiar to last's year. But now I read it's 900HP is that true? please can you shed some light on this?
It's mostly speculation. Someone found some semi-vague mention of HP on a Ferrari site, another found some mention of a HP range for the Renault (?) engine in another interview.

The thing is, the HP varies on these engines from race to race depending on a lot of conditions, it's not really static. They also vary the amount of power they use from the engine depending on which mapping is selected.

We'll also never get any dyno numbers from anyone, at the most we'll know that peak HP is around XXX or something of that sort.

The MGU-K is limited to 120 KW in power, and the engine is limited in fuel flow. Current HP estimates that I've heard for the ICE is around 600-650 HP.

EDIT: There's some calculations that you may be interested in being done in this thread: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 45#p488745

Crabbia
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Lazy wrote:
langwadt wrote:
SiLo wrote: I'm wondering if they are practicing using ERS to run through the pit lane so that they can save fuel for the race. Every little counts.
I don't see how it could save them anything. All the energy still has to come from the fuel, electric power used in the pit lane is just less electric power to use on the track
I'm not so sure about that, it looks to me like they might struggle to use their full ES allowance each lap, could easily be some excess to use for fuel saving.
Agree with this as the cars would be using power from the ES on the start finish straight on a normal lap if they had not come into the pits. They are just using the allotted energy in the pits instead of on the start finish straight.

Also could possibly help with cooling during pit stops.
A wise man once told me you cant polish a turd...

Maxion
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Crabbia wrote:
Lazy wrote:
langwadt wrote: I don't see how it could save them anything. All the energy still has to come from the fuel, electric power used in the pit lane is just less electric power to use on the track
I'm not so sure about that, it looks to me like they might struggle to use their full ES allowance each lap, could easily be some excess to use for fuel saving.
Agree with this as the cars would be using power from the ES on the start finish straight on a normal lap if they had not come into the pits. They are just using the allotted energy in the pits instead of on the start finish straight.

Also could possibly help with cooling during pit stops.
Since the F1 cars do not contain a starter motor they won't be running only on the MGU-K. Cylinder shutdown is AFAIK allowed in 2014 so theoretically they should be able to turn off a few cylinders and run predominantly with the MGU-K.

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djos
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2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Maxion wrote:
Since the F1 cars do not contain a starter motor they won't be running only on the MGU-K. Cylinder shutdown is AFAIK allowed in 2014 so theoretically they should be able to turn off a few cylinders and run predominantly with the MGU-K.
If the MGU-K can turn the crankshaft it can also start the ICE.
"In downforce we trust"

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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True. Plus driving down the start finish straight flat out max power with full ERS deployed surely uses more fuel that driving down the pitlane with only ERS power. So surely it saves fuel?
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Maxion
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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djos wrote:
Maxion wrote:
Since the F1 cars do not contain a starter motor they won't be running only on the MGU-K. Cylinder shutdown is AFAIK allowed in 2014 so theoretically they should be able to turn off a few cylinders and run predominantly with the MGU-K.
If the MGU-K can turn the crankshaft it can also start the ICE.
Ahh forgot about it being placed before the clutch. Would the MGU-K be enough though to run the car through the pits at the speed limit? Is there actually further benefit to shutting down the ICE compared with idling using a few cylinders?

NTS
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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Maxion wrote:Since the F1 cars do not contain a starter motor they won't be running only on the MGU-K. Cylinder shutdown is AFAIK allowed in 2014 so theoretically they should be able to turn off a few cylinders and run predominantly with the MGU-K.
The MGU-K is basically a very powerful starter motor. You just cut injection for all cylinders at the start of the pitlane and restart them a few meters before the end-pit-limiter line. Since the crankshaft is turning at that point (by power from the MGU-K) the restarting is nothing more than starting injection and ignition. This has been done by Toyota in the Prius since 2004 and many hybrids after that.

Crabbia
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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NTS wrote:
Maxion wrote:Since the F1 cars do not contain a starter motor they won't be running only on the MGU-K. Cylinder shutdown is AFAIK allowed in 2014 so theoretically they should be able to turn off a few cylinders and run predominantly with the MGU-K.
The MGU-K is basically a very powerful starter motor. You just cut injection for all cylinders at the start of the pitlane and restart them a few meters before the end-pit-limiter line. Since the crankshaft is turning at that point (by power from the MGU-K) the restarting is nothing more than starting injection and ignition. This has been done by Toyota in the Prius since 2004 and many hybrids after that.
Although thinking about that I'm sure the teams would still want good acceleration off the line from stationary after the pit stop itself, and the MGUK by itself would give a sluggish pull off in comparison to the ICE + MGUK. So if anything i think they would run on MGUK from the pitlane limiter line to the stop, at the stop restart the ICE and then pull off with the ICE.

Considering this i think they would most likely run on predominantly MGUK at maxion mentioned with possibly the ICE having 2 cylinders shut down.
A wise man once told me you cant polish a turd...

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Artur Craft
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Re: 2014 Testing - Bahrain 19-22 Feb

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321apex wrote: He kinda said something about DF but not clearly what he was alluding to or whom. Perhaps Bahrain is a track known to put premium on cars with rear grip and he felt McL don't have it while someone else does.

But really if that is the case, then perhaps he intentionally misleads in order to protect the benefit of the butterfly rear suspension, which they use and would prefer that if it was effective, no one else would get motivated enough to re-engineer their cars.

I am never the first one to believe what competitors or teams say in public. Reading between the lines is more effective.
It's common to see drivers saying "downforce" as meaning grip. Bahrain is a stop and go track, which means there is no way to make any pertinent conclusion about any car's rear downforce.

You can have an idea about who have more downforce by seeing who brakes later when under same conditions(which is not known in testings). However, as there is no high speed corner, you cant know if a car has more rear downforce than other.

You can know, however, which car has more grip out of slow corners, but that is not downforce related. It's merely rear grip, dependent on some other factors.

That all said, I doubt Mercedes would have as much downforce as Mclaren. Brackley's car have a tighter coke-bottle than Mclaren but not that much more, and their nose probably doesn't help it either. Then, the Mclaren has a very significant advantage with their lower wishbones...

I agree with you that this seems to be more a case of Button either using an inaccurate term, or "intentionally misleading" as you well put it.