Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.

What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.

For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.

What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.

For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:06 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.

What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.

For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.
Thank you for your answer.
Having checked again I noticed that he actually arrives with a higher SOC in Q3 so the amount of energy spend is rather similar.
A case of different objectives as you said.
Nevertheless, interesting to acutally see it like that :)

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.

What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.

For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
It could be possible they use other ignition timing, other combustion modes in Q3. Other modes which are better to recharge the battery during the lap, without losing performance. These modes generate more heat, which therefore can only be used a single lap, with a cooling (out)lap immediatly after.

gruntguru
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:27 am
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:00 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:30 pm

Correct. but the problem re this "waste-gates open and both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power subject is. both 'K' and 'H' are deploying at the same time. and as far as I know neither the 'K' nor the 'H' can deploy and harvest at the same time. so when they are both deploying with waste-gates open they are sharing the maximum allowed 4MJ battery/ES stored power.
I think I understand what you are saying. Yes the 4 MJ SOC limit puts a reasonably short time limit on electric supercharger mode.

Let's say the ES is fully charged. If the K is used at 120 kW to accelerate, it can be run for 33.3 seconds before the ES SOC hits the bottom and K deployment has to stop. If electric supercharger mode is used and power draw is 120 + 100 = 220 kW, the ES will be empty after 18.2 seconds. Neither mode can be used again until the ES SOC has been increased above zero.
YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mattchu wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:26 pm
Are there not 3 wires because the motor is 3 phase AC?

DC out of battery -> Invertor -> MGUK/H
I believe you are correct.

And I believe that the MGUs send their power via a rectifier to the battery.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:19 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:27 am
gruntguru wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:00 pm
I think I understand what you are saying. Yes the 4 MJ SOC limit puts a reasonably short time limit on electric supercharger mode.

Let's say the ES is fully charged. If the K is used at 120 kW to accelerate, it can be run for 33.3 seconds before the ES SOC hits the bottom and K deployment has to stop. If electric supercharger mode is used and power draw is 120 + 100 = 220 kW, the ES will be empty after 18.2 seconds. Neither mode can be used again until the ES SOC has been increased above zero.
YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.
Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode

Polite
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:22 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:19 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:27 am


YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.
Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
This is a dejavù.. how many times have u been explained the energy flow and all the limitation of the rules?.. not many enough it seems!

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:22 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:19 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:27 am


YES and Correct. Yes With a fully charged battery/ES (4MJ as permitted by the rules) the 'K' is permitted by the rules to use 120 KW for 33.33 seconds per lap. And also Yes the 4MJ SOC limited by the rules puts a short time limit on electric supercharging mode when running with waste-gates open because both 'K' and 'H' are sharing battery/ES power.
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.
Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
Correct. I might disagree slightly with your numbers but not with the mechanisms you describe.

I would only add that some of the 60% from the MGU-H is stored and goes to power the electric supercharge mode.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:47 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:22 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:19 pm
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.
Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
This is a dejavù.. how many times have u been explained the energy flow and all the limitation of the rules?.. not many enough it seems!
Will appreciate you please explain the energy flow and all the limitations of the rules and on your wat pick-up anything wrong or incorrect in the above post.

saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:16 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:22 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:19 pm
Not "per lap". The 4 MJ (ES SOC) can be discharged and recharged as many times as you want. There is a limit on energy sent to the K from the ES however but that is a separate issue.
Yes, the 4 MJ SOC can be discharged and recharged as may time as they can, and yes, there is a limit on energy (4 MJ per lap) that can be sent to the 'K' from the ES. Also Yes 4 MJ is 120KW for 33.33 seconds per lap (ES-to-MGU-K). But, the MGU-H can put ‘unlimited’ generated energy onto/into the MGU-K for deployment which results in a longer period of 120KW of deployment. By 2018 about 60%of energy used was coming from the MGU-H. If 60% was coming from MGU-H, and assuming the permitted 2 MJ could be harvest by the MGU-K, this was leaving 5 MJ per lap.
I suspect that by today the best out there can produce 6 MJ deployment in a lap in qualifying mode
Correct. I might disagree slightly with your numbers but not with the mechanisms you describe.

I would only add that some of the 60% from the MGU-H is stored and goes to power the electric supercharge mode.

Thanks Henry. No problem disagreeing 'slightly' with my numbers, right of yours that. And yes, I omitted to say that some of the 60% harvested from the MGU-H is stored and goes to power the electric supercharger mode. will like to add 'Stored (unlimited" in ES, But although unlimited, still the max ES SOC will be 4 MJ.

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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henry wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:06 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.

What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.

For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.
While I haven't seen the onboard video yet, I assume Vettel simply used overtake button, since he was fighting Hamilton.

I assume they start the race in highest mode(from fuel point of view) since there is no penalty for carrying that extra fuel around, like there is later in the race.

So they can use hot-blowing or motor-generating every time throttle is not at 100%.

But from e. energy point of view, I see no benefit in running out of battery by T7 L1.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:54 am
henry wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:06 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Due to the lighting in Singapore it is quite easy to see the dash of the steering wheel.

What I found interesting is that Vettel's battery was nearly empty going in to turn 7 on the first lap. He hadn't used that much energy at the same point in Q3. He got to the straight (on first lap) with the same SOC but used quite a bit more energy on it than in Q3.

For sure in Quali you're chaising the best laptime and on the first lap you want to maximise your chances to overtake on the straight.
But wouldn't that mean that Ferrari isn't using max. deployment in kW there in Q3 though?
I guess in both cases the PU is in e-boost mode but one uses more energy than the other? Could that be explained by fuel load? Or is there a different reasoning behind it?
E-boost is a mode that is mixed with others by the strategy. In both qualifying and lap one the difference in the power(kW) will be slight but on lap one it would appear that the strategy used a higher proportion of the e-boost and other SOC using modes. The objectives are different. In Qualifying the objective is clear, spread the SOC over the whole lap to achieve the lowest lap time. Perhaps the lap one objective is to maintain position and hopefully make a break early in the lap that can then be nursed. If everyone else is pursuing the same strategy, heavy use of SOC, there’s little risk.
While I haven't seen the onboard video yet, I assume Vettel simply used overtake button, since he was fighting Hamilton.

I assume they start the race in highest mode(from fuel point of view) since there is no penalty for carrying that extra fuel around, like there is later in the race.

So they can use hot-blowing or motor-generating every time throttle is not at 100%.

But from e. energy point of view, I see no benefit in running out of battery by T7 L1.
I also haven’t seen the footage. I was simply responding to @MtthsMlw with what I believe to be a plausible explanation.

I’d forgotten the overtake button which would override the strategy. So it might be same strategy but driver override. With the overtake button pressed the ES will likely be depleted at around 200kW. 20 seconds would fully deplete the 4MJ SOC at the race start. As you say there would be some recuperation from braking and hot blowing. Which would mean some SOC left as @MtthsMlw reported. Thereafter the SOC could be recuperated in preparation for the next point of attack or in order to get back to starting the next lap at around 2MJ.

Singapore is almost the only track at which recuperation from braking approaches 2MJ making hot blowing less necessary.

The believe benefit of running SOC low in the early part of the first lap is as I said. If you don’t you might get challenged by someone who is using up their SOC.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes he pressed the overtake button, called K1 Plus. Highest mode, only used sometimes on the straights while defending or attacking.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:48 am
Mattchu wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:26 pm
Are there not 3 wires because the motor is 3 phase AC?
DC out of battery -> Invertor -> MGUK/H
I believe you are correct.
And I believe that the MGUs send their power via a rectifier to the battery.
there must be 3 'wires' (terminal connections) plus transducer signal-to-logic wires regardless of whether the MGs are ....
brushless DC machines (as was the Honda KERS)
brushless synchronous machines aka AC servo
induction type machines aka asynchronous (with flux vector type of drive)

(but 4 or more terminal connections if switched reluctance machines)

maybe the 35000 rpm ? K and 125000 rpm H are of the same basic type
K response is important (but eased by the electro-hydraulic control of clutch transmitted torque)
brushless synchronous (but tolerant of momentary imposed slip) they are then !