Burning coolant fluid

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
Big Tea
97
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:37 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:27 pm
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
And water adds 1kg per ltr to start weight. (But! burning a ltr of fuel produces well over a ltr of water, so can it be recovered?)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
siskue2005
70
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:37 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:27 pm
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
What if they only need it for 1 lap or even a small straight of one lap? Then they would need only a small amount of water.

User avatar
Big Tea
97
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

siskue2005 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:39 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:37 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:27 pm
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
What if they only need it for 1 lap or even a small straight of one lap? Then they would need only a small amount of water.
But the drinks bottle would not work then, where ever the switch was :twisted:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
coaster
16
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

Heavily coked, high mileage motors were said to benefit from a hairdresser water spray bottle hand pumped into the intake at a high idle setting.
Supposedly it would have a decoking effect.

gruntguru
gruntguru
548
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

Water injection removes coke. Not sure how effective the spray bottle technique would be.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:59 pm

And water adds 1kg per ltr to start weight.
(But! burning a ltr of fuel produces well over a ltr of water, so can it be recovered?)

Very likely, F1 Team fuel-performance scientists will have formulated a brew to maximize
any 'power by burning %' potential of their proprietary fuel, & have also duly calculated the
'waste heat' of any water content in the mixture to be burned, esp' since they are not bound
by regular road-vehicle gaseous 'emission regulations', & so must have a very different set
of parameters as to what constitutes 'clean-burning fuel', in accordance with these 'bounds'.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

Steam injection possibly could be used. Spray water into the exhaust stream the steam created exapands and increases volume flow through the turbine. I dont know if adding glycol to this stream will create a fuel to counter the heat lost from the boiling.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

gruntguru
gruntguru
548
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:57 am
Steam injection possibly could be used. Spray water into the exhaust stream the steam created exapands and increases volume flow through the turbine.
Won't work. Total gas volume (steam + cooled exhaust gas) is less than hot exhaust gas alone. This is especially true of water which has a very high latent heat of vaporisation.
je suis charlie

User avatar
Big Tea
97
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:35 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:57 am
Steam injection possibly could be used. Spray water into the exhaust stream the steam created exapands and increases volume flow through the turbine.
Won't work. Total gas volume (steam + cooled exhaust gas) is less than hot exhaust gas alone. This is especially true of water which has a very high latent heat of vaporisation.
edit- removed because I realise it was stupid. The problem now is not getting air in, but fuel :mrgreen:
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
AnthonyG
38
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

wuzak wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 am
Maritimer wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:10 am
Water soluble oils don't burn very nicely, especially once they're in solution. The vapors can be flammable but I doubt you would get much useful energy from them in an engine. Plus theres the matter of getting your coolant into the cylinder without there being potential for the engine to pump gases into the water jacket. Probably not a path worth going down.
I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake. Wouldn't the best and easiest location to do it be via the intercooler which is after the compressor?
You can add extra coolant to the circuit from a tank and then play around with the cooling circuit pressure to control the release.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

User avatar
coaster
16
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

Could the exhaust wheel in the turbo get sprayed to prolong turbo life?

User avatar
etusch
117
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

wuzak wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:39 pm
That is oil burning on startup.

The plume near the brake light is oil from the crankcase breather.

I can't see how you could introduce coolant to the combustion process in a manner not obviously illegal.
Did you know das system before you saw it?

Rodak
Rodak
31
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake.
Have you ever seen a car driving down the road with a blown head gasket and the cloud of thick smoke produced by the glycol in the coolant?

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

AnthonyG wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:36 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 am
Maritimer wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:10 am
Water soluble oils don't burn very nicely, especially once they're in solution. The vapors can be flammable but I doubt you would get much useful energy from them in an engine. Plus theres the matter of getting your coolant into the cylinder without there being potential for the engine to pump gases into the water jacket. Probably not a path worth going down.
I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake. Wouldn't the best and easiest location to do it be via the intercooler which is after the compressor?
You can add extra coolant to the circuit from a tank and then play around with the cooling circuit pressure to control the release.
And you expect that a system like mentioned will get past or around the regulations/rules policing?
...personal stuff removed...

User avatar
AnthonyG
38
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Burning coolant fluid

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:53 pm
AnthonyG wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:36 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 am


I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
I've been thinking about the concept of leaking water/glycol into the intake. Wouldn't the best and easiest location to do it be via the intercooler which is after the compressor?
You can add extra coolant to the circuit from a tank and then play around with the cooling circuit pressure to control the release.
And you expect that a system like mentioned will get past or around the regulations/rules policing?
...personal stuff removed...
I think there ways it would be acceptable. Similar to what made oil burning acceptable.

A possible motivation.
Extra reservoir for cooling: ensuring constant engine perfomance or avoid damage to engine in case of a leak.
Pressure changes: this is done already for example to increase the boiling temp of coolant.
Release: hardest thing to achieve, but a small "safety" valve (for excess pressure) or a controlled leak one way or another. The controled leak would of course not be legal in the spirit of the rules,but neither was a controlled oil leaking turbo bearing.

Don't pinn me down on a certain specific, but I think the general concept can be achieved legally.
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel