2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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I’m not knocking Sainz, I think he’s a top driver. Do I think he is in the very elite top? Not quite, but he’s not far off. The only reason I say this is because he hasn’t outshined team mates and stamped his authority on them consistently enough. That lack of shine is why people underrated him in the first place, but he has developed well and been a little overlooked. But that’s clearly changing now. Let’s see how he goes next year. If he begins to dominate leclerc then that proposes a strong case that Sainz has developed him self towards the elite. But it also raises question marks; how good was Vettel in his last years at Ferrari? Did the prestige of beating a past his best Vettel, flatter how great Charles is? It’s going to be hard to judge next year because the cars are completely different, and it’s going to be a mark of ones adaptability and natural driving style strengths that make some of these drivers shine compared to their team mates and other rivals next year in the early phase of the new era.

I really don’t agree with the comments suggesting leclerc is overrated because he has made mistakes? He’s made the odd one but he’s not littered his career with them to the point where journalists ask him why he keeps doing it, or commentators shaking their heads at him. He’s not become a crash meme.

The fact remains, he’s pulled some really strong results out of the bag on Sunday and in Saturday, I’m not convinced Carlos has quite that level yet.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:16 am
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:04 am
Very interesting to see Sainz doing so well, it’s going to upset someone if he upstages Charles. He is the marketable one, and the Ferrari golden child. But not to worry yet from his perspective, Ferrari know Charles lost some big points that came down to fortune not being on his side. So it’s not like Sainz, despite maybe finishing ahead come Abu Dhabi, looks like the right horse to back to lead a championship.
Sainz also lost some big points that came down to fortune not being on his side. Poor pitstops have been too frequent and costly in his side of the garage. Except Mexico it was 3 races in a row, plus some more previously and those are a lot of points

Also for whatever reason this season has been very very difficult for drivers with new cars, even for some with loads of experience (Perez, Alonso, Ricciardo, Sainz...). All suffered on first third/half of the season, loosing a lot of points too until they got used to their cars, and that cost Sainz a lot of points too

With both drivers with previous experience with the car, and similiar pitstop problems, Sainz would be ahead of Charles in the table for sure
I don’t agree with what you’re saying exactly, but I can concede sainz has lost points too. I’d have to analyse it to form an opinion about how their misfortune stacks up but I’m not especially motivated. I just know that right now, Leclerc has a DNF which wasn’t his fault, and Sainz inherited points from him on that occasion. Sainz also didn’t shine that day and I Think Charles probably might have been able to impress and fight for a higher position if he was still in the race after turn 1. Russia was a coin flip and some people won. You take these into account and it does flatter their places on the standings. But again, I’m not knocking Sainz, he’s done outstanding in his maiden Ferrari drives as a new driver to the team.

That’s an assumption about Sainz. There’s too many variables you’re glossing over about that.

Perez joined a team with a car that arguably has the most narrow happy spot to drive in, a car built and tailored so closely to just one drivers driving and input footprint. Making it very difficult for others to get comfortable with a car that demands you match the rhythm of another driver instead of your own. Perez has experience but he’s not an elite, and he had been used to one car, engine and team for many years before moving to red bull.

Alonso has been out of formula 1 for two years, so that alone makes it inappropriate to use him as an example of adapting to a new car / team, and if anything it goes against what you want to use him for; he’s adapted well and quickly given the context of him being out of F1 cars for those years and coming to a new car.

I’ll give you Ricciardo, but by this point, he’s just one example. So, with such a small sample Size to truly judge this on, that’s no bueno.

Some drivers are more adaptable than others, given Sainz has been on a merry go round of teams in his career, I think he has good experience adapting to different techniques. He’s never stayed in one environment for many years. And he just might be one of those drivers. So, in essence, he might be close to the ceiling of his best performance at Ferrari, or closer than you’re estimating, rather than being far away from it in the beginning. It’s not like his performance has been night and day from early in the season till now..which supports what I’m suggesting.

JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:38 pm


Some drivers are more adaptable than others, given Sainz has been on a merry go round of teams in his career, I think he has good experience adapting to different techniques. He’s never stayed in one environment for many years. And he just might be one of those drivers. So, in essence, he might be close to the ceiling of his best performance at Ferrari, or closer than you’re estimating, rather than being far away from it in the beginning. It’s not like his performance has been night and day from early in the season till now..which supports what I’m suggesting.
I disagree. Carlos has clearly gotten better as the season has progressed and the improvement of his qualifying performances vs Leclerc has proven that.

I don’t think he’s 100% with the car and he’s recently said as much.

Next year will provide a reset, but the further integration with the team will only help. I don’t think he’d necessarily be “ahead” of Charles all things equal but I think a Hamilton vs Button dynamic certainly isn’t far off.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:09 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:38 pm


Some drivers are more adaptable than others, given Sainz has been on a merry go round of teams in his career, I think he has good experience adapting to different techniques. He’s never stayed in one environment for many years. And he just might be one of those drivers. So, in essence, he might be close to the ceiling of his best performance at Ferrari, or closer than you’re estimating, rather than being far away from it in the beginning. It’s not like his performance has been night and day from early in the season till now..which supports what I’m suggesting.
I disagree. Carlos has clearly gotten better as the season has progressed and the improvement of his qualifying performances vs Leclerc has proven that.

I don’t think he’s 100% with the car and he’s recently said as much.

Next year will provide a reset, but the further integration with the team will only help. I don’t think he’d necessarily be “ahead” of Charles all things equal but I think a Hamilton vs Button dynamic certainly isn’t far off.


There’s a difference between improving and his performance being night and day. if it’s been a substantial improvement, he’d be dominating Charles comfortably, and the media would’ve made stories about his struggles at Ferrari in the beginning. It’s been the complete opposite. If you disagree that’s fine, let’s see if sainz is a new kettle of fish after his first season.
Last edited by AeroDynamic on Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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codetower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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I don't understand the "overhyped" narrative on Leclerc. I haven't, or rarely if so, heard him compared to Hamilton or Verstappen. I don't hear him being the next big challenger to the two top. I've only heard that in the right car, he could compete well. I don't think that's inaccurate. He's a kid who's won a GP3 championship, a F2 championship, he's been in F1 for just over 3 and a half years and has a couple of wins, 13 podiums, 9 poles... thats more than Sainz (who's been racing for almost twice as long), and except for Max, I believe more than all the other young talents on the grid today.

As far as Carlos, I really like him a lot, I think he's the perfect addition to Ferrari. I think the two driving styles suit the team well. But I still believe Charles is a slightly better driver right now. They've both made their mistakes, but naturally I think Charles' might be more noticeable or frequent partly because he does seem to take more risks. But I'm really excited about this duo moving forward.
-- Ancora Imparo

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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The leclerc sainz dynamic will be the same bracket of difference as Hamilton - Rosberg IMO

Sainz is good enough for winning and keeping the very elite on their toes when he puts in his best level consistently. But not likely to come out on top of an elite without the help of reliability / fortune disparity. But would make a deserving champion.

JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:25 pm
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:09 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:38 pm


Some drivers are more adaptable than others, given Sainz has been on a merry go round of teams in his career, I think he has good experience adapting to different techniques. He’s never stayed in one environment for many years. And he just might be one of those drivers. So, in essence, he might be close to the ceiling of his best performance at Ferrari, or closer than you’re estimating, rather than being far away from it in the beginning. It’s not like his performance has been night and day from early in the season till now..which supports what I’m suggesting.
I disagree. Carlos has clearly gotten better as the season has progressed and the improvement of his qualifying performances vs Leclerc has proven that.

I don’t think he’s 100% with the car and he’s recently said as much.

Next year will provide a reset, but the further integration with the team will only help. I don’t think he’d necessarily be “ahead” of Charles all things equal but I think a Hamilton vs Button dynamic certainly isn’t far off.


There’s a difference between improving and his performance being night and day. if it’s been a substantial improvement, he’d be dominating Charles comfortably, and the media would’ve made stories about his struggles at Ferrari in the beginning. It’s been the complete opposite. If you disagree that’s fine, let’s see if sainz is a new kettle of fish after his first season.
The media didn't make light of his struggles at the beginning because others drivers such as Perez and Ricciardo were so off pace. They only started writing articles later in the season about his adjustment period.

I don't think he's close to being at his 2020 McLaren best, but at the same time I don't think that means he'd be outright better than Charles every race at 100%. More like 40-50% of the time.
Last edited by JPower on Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Gillian
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:09 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:38 pm


Some drivers are more adaptable than others, given Sainz has been on a merry go round of teams in his career, I think he has good experience adapting to different techniques. He’s never stayed in one environment for many years. And he just might be one of those drivers. So, in essence, he might be close to the ceiling of his best performance at Ferrari, or closer than you’re estimating, rather than being far away from it in the beginning. It’s not like his performance has been night and day from early in the season till now..which supports what I’m suggesting.
I disagree. Carlos has clearly gotten better as the season has progressed and the improvement of his qualifying performances vs Leclerc has proven that.

I don’t think he’s 100% with the car and he’s recently said as much.

Next year will provide a reset, but the further integration with the team will only help. I don’t think he’d necessarily be “ahead” of Charles all things equal but I think a Hamilton vs Button dynamic certainly isn’t far off.
Agreed and my gut feeling is he will be slightly ahead of Leclerc, but will be very interesting. They both can and will improve and it will very interesting to see where it goes.

JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:16 pm
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:09 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:38 pm


Some drivers are more adaptable than others, given Sainz has been on a merry go round of teams in his career, I think he has good experience adapting to different techniques. He’s never stayed in one environment for many years. And he just might be one of those drivers. So, in essence, he might be close to the ceiling of his best performance at Ferrari, or closer than you’re estimating, rather than being far away from it in the beginning. It’s not like his performance has been night and day from early in the season till now..which supports what I’m suggesting.
I disagree. Carlos has clearly gotten better as the season has progressed and the improvement of his qualifying performances vs Leclerc has proven that.

I don’t think he’s 100% with the car and he’s recently said as much.

Next year will provide a reset, but the further integration with the team will only help. I don’t think he’d necessarily be “ahead” of Charles all things equal but I think a Hamilton vs Button dynamic certainly isn’t far off.
Agreed and my gut feeling is he will be slightly ahead of Leclerc, but will be very interesting. They both can and will improve and it will very interesting to see where it goes.
I'm interested to see where it heads as well. I think Charles definitely has the outright pace advantage but Sainz isn't far off. The qualifying record looks lopsided over the whole season but over their last 9 head to head qualifying battles(excluding Turkey/Russia/Hungary), the record is 5-4 Leclerc.

If you told anyone that would happen at the beginning of the season they would've called you insane.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:14 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:25 pm
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:09 pm

I disagree. Carlos has clearly gotten better as the season has progressed and the improvement of his qualifying performances vs Leclerc has proven that.

I don’t think he’s 100% with the car and he’s recently said as much.

Next year will provide a reset, but the further integration with the team will only help. I don’t think he’d necessarily be “ahead” of Charles all things equal but I think a Hamilton vs Button dynamic certainly isn’t far off.


There’s a difference between improving and his performance being night and day. if it’s been a substantial improvement, he’d be dominating Charles comfortably, and the media would’ve made stories about his struggles at Ferrari in the beginning. It’s been the complete opposite. If you disagree that’s fine, let’s see if sainz is a new kettle of fish after his first season.
The media didn't make light of his struggles at the beginning because others drivers such as Perez and Ricciardo were so off pace. They only started writing articles later in the season about his adjustment period.
What struggles? he's never struggled. He's just taken a bit of time to adapt. Not the same thing, hes actually adapted very well and it has been anything but a 'struggle.' if you want to look at a picture of struggle, you only need look at Ricciardo or Perez. Thats the night and day difference between Sainz and those other drives. His adjustment period was pretty brief, and again, there's not been a night and day difference.

Qualifying.. Was he struggling to get into Q3? no. In the beginning of the season he still managed to qualify in the top 6 often when the car was able. He qualified in the top 3 once or twice,(You can cite Monaco, when the Ferrari was genuinely fighting for Pole) Russia – when Verstappen / Bottas / Leclerc had taken a grid penalty and LH / MCS cocked up and were out of the frame. Otherwise, hes still qualifying in the same places; 5th, 6th, and behind Leclerc. That's not new from the beginning of the season, just a little more consistent, but not by a lot.. Despite the Ferrari now being improved engine and chassis wise, and much more competitive with the McLarens.

JPower
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:38 pm
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:14 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:25 pm



There’s a difference between improving and his performance being night and day. if it’s been a substantial improvement, he’d be dominating Charles comfortably, and the media would’ve made stories about his struggles at Ferrari in the beginning. It’s been the complete opposite. If you disagree that’s fine, let’s see if sainz is a new kettle of fish after his first season.
The media didn't make light of his struggles at the beginning because others drivers such as Perez and Ricciardo were so off pace. They only started writing articles later in the season about his adjustment period.
What struggles? he's never struggled.
According to you. As far as I know, he was up until recently still struggling with brake and tire feel. He's doing a good job of driving around those issues, but not knowing or being used to what a car is doing is definitely a struggle(which partially led to him being in the wall in Hungary/Zand/Monza and also his tire deg issues at various races).

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:47 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:38 pm
JPower wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:14 pm

The media didn't make light of his struggles at the beginning because others drivers such as Perez and Ricciardo were so off pace. They only started writing articles later in the season about his adjustment period.
What struggles? he's never struggled.
According to you. As far as I know, he was up until recently still struggling with brake and tire feel. He's doing a good job of driving around those issues, but not knowing or being used to what a car is doing is definitely a struggle(which partially led to him being in the wall in Hungary/Zand/Monza and also his tire deg issues at various races).

Call it that if you want to, but nothing outside of your opinion on paper or in the minds of people in the paddock, think he is struggling. its called adapting, and that's the challenge. But he hasn't "struggled" to overcome It and put in results has he? Again, theres no night and day difference from the early phase of the season and to now. hence, not a struggle.

Gillian
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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You're just arguing semantics now I think. I agree he did not struggle, adapting is a better word. I think JPower is saying the same thing. And that's why I rate Sainz a little higher, eventhough he is behind Leclerc in points. Its too easy to just look at points as a singular measurement.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:03 pm
You're just arguing semantics now I think. I agree he did not struggle, adapting is a better word. I think JPower is saying the same thing. And that's why I rate Sainz a little higher, eventhough he is behind Leclerc in points. Its too easy to just look at points as a singular measurement.
Right. but the heart of the disagreement originally was that Sainz has a lot more head room to improve and was struggling. My position was opposite, I think he adapted well and quickly, and that there isn't much more left. Now, if he managed to take the lead driver status and the team build the car very much to what Sainz wants, then that's a different conversation.

I would see his head room being bigger to find more pace out of himself. But at the moment he shares the team with another driver who is as good as Sainz on average, but a fair bit better on his best days. So they have to share a car. I think he will improve by end of next year but I honestly don't think hes far off his potential at the moment. Next year will be muddled anyway because its a reset as mentioned before so who knows. He might shine not only against Leclerc but others in the grid because he seems pretty adaptable.

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jumpingfish
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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At the Turkish Grand Prix, Sainz used a large rear wing, Charles had a "spoon" version. As Leclerc said "Even when the rear feels a bit unstable, I actually like that, I can make the car turn the way I want it to."
Schumacher once said that although he does not like the unstable rear, he can overcome it. If driver A and B can take turns at the same speed, and driver A has a smaller rear wing due to driving style, would it be more useful to the team because of the higher possible straight line speed?