Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Big Tea
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:49 am
bluechris wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:56 pm
Guys i don't know what you see here but i personally see 2 cars from Leclerc and Verstapen almost in the same position and another one from Hamilton that in Leclerc case is on apex correctly and in the case of Verstapen he is almost 2 meters from it.
He was correctly penalized imo and we can continue with our lives.
1) Hamilton does *not* need to be on the apex.
2) Racing line (as proven by qualifying laps) are not even on the apex at that point of the turn.
3) Hamilton is not closer to apex because Max pushed him towards the wall which made Ham's turn angle more acute.
4) Hamilton does not need to yield one mm in this incident since they are side by side before the turn.
Hamilton is also passing in such a way as to keep the lead ( if he takes it ) from Max who will do all he can to re pass.
Hamilton would not take the prefect line but one to position his car where he wants it after the corner, and the same for Max who would like to keep his place.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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So you say that Hamilton is in the right place then when they hit, why he didn't turn a bit more? After all he was behind? I will tell you that he carried more speed than with Leclerc, with tyres full with dust and not only he was on the limit but i have mix feeling if he could had turn correctly in the exit because i believe his car rotated because of the touch and that why he turned.
If you also see how much time he lost trying to turn after the hit because he totally lifted the gas and that Leclerc who was 2-3 seconds behind, managed to pass him, im certain he woudnt had made the turn.
That's my opinion offcourse and as it seems FIA and the referees agree with me.


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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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This thread was never about who was or wasn't in the right, as repeated by hollus in this post.

It's rather unlikely that the contact could have helped him get the corner for various reasons.

And Leclerc wasn't 2-3 seconds behind, rather ~0.6s.

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Stu
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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The fairest result of all would have been for them both to end up in the gravel after the impact. I think that with how far ‘off-line’ LH was at the corner exit (very big understeer after seeming to lift after the impact) his LHF wheel tyre either suffered damage (which I have seen/heard reported) or was caused to ‘burp’ some air during the impact.
It is difficult to view the incident in total isolation as so much had been happening between both LH & MV in the preceding 1/2 lap. It was very 50:50 throughout.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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bluechris wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:15 pm
So you say that Hamilton is in the right place then when they hit, why he didn't turn a bit more? After all he was behind? I will tell you that he carried more speed than with Leclerc, with tyres full with dust and not only he was on the limit but i have mix feeling if he could had turn correctly in the exit because i believe his car rotated because of the touch and that why he turned.
If you also see how much time he lost trying to turn after the hit because he totally lifted the gas and that Leclerc who was 2-3 seconds behind, managed to pass him, im certain he woudnt had made the turn.
That's my opinion offcourse and as it seems FIA and the referees agree with me.
2 things, Leclerc was right with them, Look at the exit of the previous corner, he was right with them, not 2-3 seconds. not sure where you got that from.

second thing, with racing you can go faster in to corners, you just have to slow more in the corner to make it through the corner. You must have heard of things like slow in, fast out. or fast in slow out. Lewis was indeed fast in, but he had a touch of the brake pedal so would have been slow out.

Also like to add if he was faster in than he was with Leclerc while having a heavy car and maybe cold tyres, what the hell was max doing, he too was off line, and he was even faster in!!!
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Just to follow that up,

Here is Luffield before they go on to the old start finish straight

Image

and for the record, Alonso was 3 seconds behind Max at the point of the incident, he was down in 8th.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:58 am
nevill3 wrote:
Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:25 pm
Thanks for this slow motion, when you add the composite image uploaded by RZS10 ( added below) we have a clearer view of the incident. However seeing it at full speed live also makes you realize that analysing things in slow motion after the fact does not compare to the split microsecond decisions that have to be made by the drivers.

IMO the main cause of the accident this time was the decision by both drivers not to yield and as has been quoted many times over the years,
I am here, it is now up to you if we have a collision
RZS10 wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:33 pm
Tried to put together a composite image but i'm not really happy with it because i struggled to account for the camera pitch etc, what i mean by that is that i couldn't line it up perfectly using various objects from the seperate images as guidance ... anyways ... it's not completely off:
https://i.imgur.com/oQossKS.png
https://i.imgur.com/oQossKS.png
here's an imgur album with a few more with lines and the full corner (probably not all that precise), the full lines are based on their right wheels, the broken lines are just guesses.
https://imgur.com/a/NInVRVY
And here is his comparison with Leclerc:
RZS10 wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:35 am
Composite for Lewis/Charles:

https://i.imgur.com/0PeKjxR.jpg

Full Album https://imgur.com/a/vN9HY56

I really tried my best to combine both composite images but neither filling in a few key frames nor using the finished image gave any result worth posting since the difference in camera (heli?) position is just too big - one would have to lay a grid onto the track from various known points in both images and then stretch/warp one image so the grid would fit that of the other but that's beyond my capabilities i think. For the composite i just distorted the image preserving the relative positions of objects to each other, most importantly the cars on track.
Hamilton is clearly completely on kerb and slows down much more in this case in order to make that apex. In Verstappen's case his trajectory would never enable him to reach that same line. He's there to make a statement and just goes in too hot for given conditions and plows into verstappen's right rear.
It has already beens said many times, he was not alongside Leclerc at any point in time (barely reaching his back wheel) so he didn't feel he had the right to chose the line. With Max he was abviously alongside him (front wheels overlapping) so he did have a right to chose line while leaving enough space for the driver on the outside.

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hollus
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Again the reminder from 4 pages ago. Let’s not go there. Not in this thread.
hollus wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:40 pm
Topic locked. Guys, if you want to discuss who is in the wrong, you already have the race thread for that. And many are doing it in the team threads anyways.
Check the title, no fan cheering here.
I’ll clean up and reopen tonight.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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some people here defend the point that Lewis didn't need to steer to hit the apex and he was in the "right", have a look at this vid here:


this is your "logic" being applied in an extreme case, consensus then was that Rosberg didn't do anything wrong there, I don't even recall if he received a penalty for that or not, but we all know what was what then

and I'll say one more time - IMO it was a racing incident, Lewis didn't do it deliberately, he came in there a little too hot, he could have avoided it, but decided to stand ground, Max might have given him a bit more room, but perhaps expected Lewis to slow down a little more, etc etc etc, and Rosbergs move wasn't just an incident, I simply wanted to show the extreme case of the inside driver not even trying to hit the apex, the outside car then automatically loses space on track period - and we as spectators are left with less sport that way, because some of the art of racing is lost when things like these are deemed perfectly legal

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm
some people here defend the point that Lewis didn't need to steer to hit the apex and he was in the "right", have a look at this vid here:


this is your "logic" being applied in an extreme case, consensus then was that Rosberg didn't do anything wrong there, I don't even recall if he received a penalty for that or not, but we all know what was what then

and I'll say one more time - IMO it was a racing incident, Lewis didn't do it deliberately, he came in there a little too hot, he could have avoided it, but decided to stand ground, Max might have given him a bit more room, but perhaps expected Lewis to slow down a little more, etc etc etc, and Rosbergs move wasn't just an incident, I simply wanted to show the extreme case of the inside driver not even trying to hit the apex, the outside car then automatically loses space on track period - and we as spectators are left with less sport that way, because some of the art of racing is lost when things like these are deemed perfectly legal
Absurd. Absolutely nobody has argued that Lewis could have left no space on the outside like Rosberg did there. It isn't an extreme case or logical extension of anything relating to the current discussions.

The only place where it has been acceptable in the past to run your opponent wide has been on corner exit, and only under very specific circumstances. How this is so hard to comprehend is baffling.

Further, I said it before and will repeat it again. In this corner it is pretty easy to take too much speed in, then just delay or reduce throttle application to keep a tighter line on exit. Nothing about Max or Lewis lines up to the point of contact completely dictates what their final trajectories would have been.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm
some people here defend the point that Lewis didn't need to steer to hit the apex and he was in the "right", have a look at this vid here:


this is your "logic" being applied in an extreme case, consensus then was that Rosberg didn't do anything wrong there, I don't even recall if he received a penalty for that or not, but we all know what was what then
I see where you are coming from, but the issue here was Rosberg didn't leave any room on the outside. As you say, it's the other extreme. There's no obligation to hit the apex, but you still need to leave space. In this situation, Rosberg clearly drove in to Hamilton. The incident from last weekend was more a case of both drivers driving in to each other.

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm
some people here defend the point that Lewis didn't need to steer to hit the apex and he was in the "right", have a look at this vid here:


this is your "logic" being applied in an extreme case, consensus then was that Rosberg didn't do anything wrong there, I don't even recall if he received a penalty for that or not, but we all know what was what then
That's not what the stewards thought.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... osberg.pdf
Having taken note of the extensive evidence given by both drivers and the video and
telemetry data, it was apparent that Car 44 (HAM) was in front of Car 6 (ROS) – i.e.
more than fully alongside – and that the driver of Car 44 could have clearly made the
turn (T2) on the track, if not for the resultant collision. Car 6 did not allow Car 44
“racing room” and hence the driver of Car 6 was responsible for the collision
Simply put the reason Rosberg got the penalty, was because he gave Lewis no room to make the turn.
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Image


Someone does it on purpose, not alright!!!

Someone does it to teach a lesson, its alright!!!

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:12 am
That's not what the stewards thought.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... osberg.pdf
Having taken note of the extensive evidence given by both drivers and the video and
telemetry data, it was apparent that Car 44 (HAM) was in front of Car 6 (ROS) – i.e.
more than fully alongside – and that the driver of Car 44 could have clearly made the
turn (T2) on the track, if not for the resultant collision. Car 6 did not allow Car 44
“racing room” and hence the driver of Car 6 was responsible for the collision
Simply put the reason Rosberg got the penalty, was because he gave Lewis no room to make the turn.
my mistake about the 10sec penalty after the race, I recall only that everyone said (commentators during and post race) that technically Rosberg didn't brake any rules with what he did (apart from making contact) - he simply took a very wide line because nothing in the book mandates him hitting the apex or even trying to during a corner (simply because then it would be necessary to define apex exactly to be able to make a ruling)

is "racing room" even defined anywhere? my memory is quite bad for such things

and 10sec penalty for schumachering Lewis off the track, does that seem adequate to you? :) that Rosbergs explanation after race was also gold :D

had they dealt with this accordingly back then, I think the likes of Max and others driving the outside car off the track on exit wouldn't be the norm it is today, and we would have more racing to see, but I also understand that writing strict rules for such cases is going down a rabbit hole so to speak, too much regulation is also bad

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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:32 am
dans79 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:12 am
That's not what the stewards thought.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... osberg.pdf
Having taken note of the extensive evidence given by both drivers and the video and
telemetry data, it was apparent that Car 44 (HAM) was in front of Car 6 (ROS) – i.e.
more than fully alongside – and that the driver of Car 44 could have clearly made the
turn (T2) on the track, if not for the resultant collision. Car 6 did not allow Car 44
“racing room” and hence the driver of Car 6 was responsible for the collision
Simply put the reason Rosberg got the penalty, was because he gave Lewis no room to make the turn.
is "racing room" even defined anywhere? my memory is quite bad for such things
Yes, in Appendix L of the sporting code
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other
drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car
beyond the edge of the track
or any other
abnormal change of direction, are strictly
prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of
any of the above offences will be reported to
the Stewards.