Red Bull RB18

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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BassVirolla
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:52 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:52 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:51 am
Why on earth would you want a car to dive forward more? It's like asking for more roll into the corners! Like having a pro-roll bar! Lol
Actually seen a few off road racers setup like that to reduce impact forces and prevent body movements from constraining the suspension.
Haven't seen it work well (well, for impacts, yes, see trailing arm baja's, but not for the rest) but have seen it.
It makes sense in that application I reckon. Thinking about it, hitting rocks at high speed, that would reduce the force going into the front springs and dampers. I am seeing it not fucntioning for braking reasons like in a car, so the pro-dive effect from decceleration we wont reall see it. So yeah probably designed for hitting rocks and stuff.



Here is a photo of what Nissan uses on their GTR btw. I like this one because it's so dramatic like the RedBull.

https://static.ed.edmunds-media.com/unv ... -intro.jpg
Because of the short upper wishbone and the long (high) upright, I see this setup also seriously influenced by the braking torque, inducing a force in the wishbone causing an additional anti dive effect.

In the Red Bull the wishbone is much longer, and the upright much shorter. I doubt that they are affected by the forces and torques in the same way.

Nevertheless, I'm not dismissing your point of view. I'm only thinking why and how could we / Scarbs / anybody think that the RB is using a pro-dive setup.

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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It's aero, more than anything. Look up the term decalage, and how it relates to bi-planes.
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BassVirolla
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:45 pm
It's aero, more than anything. Look up the term decalage, and how it relates to bi-planes.
I already know enough (not much, but enough to this) about bi-planes. :wink:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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BassVirolla wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:16 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:52 pm
PhillipM wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:52 am


Actually seen a few off road racers setup like that to reduce impact forces and prevent body movements from constraining the suspension.
Haven't seen it work well (well, for impacts, yes, see trailing arm baja's, but not for the rest) but have seen it.
It makes sense in that application I reckon. Thinking about it, hitting rocks at high speed, that would reduce the force going into the front springs and dampers. I am seeing it not fucntioning for braking reasons like in a car, so the pro-dive effect from decceleration we wont reall see it. So yeah probably designed for hitting rocks and stuff.



Here is a photo of what Nissan uses on their GTR btw. I like this one because it's so dramatic like the RedBull.

https://static.ed.edmunds-media.com/unv ... -intro.jpg
Because of the short upper wishbone and the long (high) upright, I see this setup also seriously influenced by the braking torque, inducing a force in the wishbone causing an additional anti dive effect.

In the Red Bull the wishbone is much longer, and the upright much shorter. I doubt that they are affected by the forces and torques in the same way.

Nevertheless, I'm not dismissing your point of view. I'm only thinking why and how could we / Scarbs / anybody think that the RB is using a pro-dive setup.
Yes, the GTR is a heavy car, but extremely stable under braking and in the corners. The RB18 is a much heavier car compared to previous years, so maybe Newey did this to retain to certain braking characteristics.
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F1Krof
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Could this be the key to their no-porpoising success?

Also there is one thing I'm struggling to understand how the flaps are setup.

Is it like split flaps meeting at the end like so:

Image

Or are the flaps mounted with an angle:

Image
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SiLo
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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F1Krof wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:21 pm
Or are the flaps mounted with an angle:

https://i.imgur.com/rOqq5no.jpg
This one is correct.
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Wouter
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Former Ferrari driver Gerhard Berger sees that Red Bull has made a big step and that they are suddenly back
among the favourites for the title.

Across Speedweek Berger shines his light on the current title fight. "It has been more difficult so far for Red Bull to get the tires in the right operating window. Ferrari was also better than it is in terms of weight, although Red Bull lost five kilos for Imola.
That's one and a half tenths per lap.
Red Bull did just a little bit better than Ferrari in Imola and that proved to be enough to win. Fortunately, nothing went wrong this time."
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AR3-GP
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:55 pm
Former Ferrari driver Gerhard Berger sees that Red Bull has made a big step and that they are suddenly back
among the favourites for the title.

Across Speedweek Berger shines his light on the current title fight. "It has been more difficult so far for Red Bull to get the tires in the right operating window. Ferrari was also better than it is in terms of weight, although Red Bull lost five kilos for Imola.
That's one and a half tenths per lap.
Red Bull did just a little bit better than Ferrari in Imola and that proved to be enough to win. Fortunately, nothing went wrong this time."
5 kgs. They still have a long way to go with the weight. We wouldn't have this problem if they did not change to spec wheel rims.

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Seanspeed
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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So I've heard 4kg, 5kg, 6kg, and 10kg for weight loss at Imola.

Which is it?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Only FIA weigh birdge officers and stewards know. The teams can chat among themselves too.
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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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3kg out of the front axle alone, and another kg and change at t-tray area. It's not just the mass, but where the mass is placed. Saving weight on the front calipers, and upright reduces weight at the extremity. Combined with the lightened front wing endplates, you now altered the COG a bit.

Now you can get the front end rotated faster mechanically, and the COP acts on a new COG, so the aerodynamics also changes. Probably why they both slimmed the leading edge of the bow, and added those two vortex generators.

They started with a more blunted bow and trimmed it down along with the internal packaging.

The floor strakes on the RBR remind me of the impeller of a centrifugal compressor. They even have a splitter vane on the outside, and a nice upsweep angle at the trailing edge.

Image
Last edited by godlameroso on Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ispano6
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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The Red Bull has the widest central section, and like the Ferrari, the central section is egg shaped.

Image

I imagine the flow is doing something like this alongside the floor, when looked at from underneath. If you wanted to start those vortices earlier, then it makes sense to put a pair of VG's before the body generated ones.
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Vanja #66
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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F1Krof wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:21 pm
https://twitter.com/NaturalParadigm/sta ... VP3Dc4_9sg
Could this be the key to their no-porpoising success?
No. They don't bounce because they generate less downforce from floor, coming from slightly bigger tunnel height compared to Ferrari and Mercedes.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:58 pm
F1Krof wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:21 pm
https://twitter.com/NaturalParadigm/sta ... VP3Dc4_9sg
Could this be the key to their no-porpoising success?
No. They don't bounce because they generate less downforce from floor, coming from slightly bigger tunnel height compared to Ferrari and Mercedes.
How do you know how much downforce they generate from the floor? Didn't RBR say they controlled the bouncing with their suspension? If they made less downforce, how are they the fastest in high speed corners despite a smaller rear wing?
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