2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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Hammerfist
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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CHT wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:18 am
I think one of the reasons that made the LV GP exciting was the fact that it was an unusual race for MV as he didn't get the pole position nor manage to lead from start to end.

Supposedly if Max was on a pole or didn't have the 1st corner 5 sec penalty, it is very likely that he will control the race from start to end. Come 2024, I reckon most cars will run a Monza like aero setup to take advantage of the long straight.

He would not have controlled the race. He was caught and passed by Leclerc before he pitted. With no safety car Leclerc well might have won this race comfortably. The redbull was weak on the mediums.

CHT
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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Hammerfist wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:06 am
CHT wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:18 am
I think one of the reasons that made the LV GP exciting was the fact that it was an unusual race for MV as he didn't get the pole position nor manage to lead from start to end.

Supposedly if Max was on a pole or didn't have the 1st corner 5 sec penalty, it is very likely that he will control the race from start to end. Come 2024, I reckon most cars will run a Monza like aero setup to take advantage of the long straight.
He would not have controlled the race. He was caught and passed by Leclerc before he pitted. With no safety car Leclerc well might have won this race comfortably. The redbull was weak on the mediums.

Leclerc only managed to pass just before Max pitted. Once on harder tyres, Max was untouchable and it will be easy for Max to retain the lead once Lec pit if he didnt serve that 5 sec penalty.

Max is quicker in Sector 1 and Sector 2, while Lec is quicker in Sector 3, but only marginal. Which is why Max was able to pull away.

Incognito
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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Wouter wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:20 am
Verstappen admits that he pushed Leclerc off (so he admits that Leclerc would've made the corner) and both Verstappen and Red Bull knew what had happened, that he'd gained the place illegally...and didn't give the place back.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be absolutely fine with saying whatever made me look good after the race, I've already won. I trashed Leclerc's tyres for 16 laps and robbed a faster car of the ability to build up a gap to me over the first stint. Saying "Oops, sorry." as I wave the winner's trophy around costs me absolutely nothing.

Incognito
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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avantman wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:20 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 2:21 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:42 pm
Hamilton casually doodling on racing line with a puncture cost verstappen 3s to russell.
If another driver had done what Hamilton did today, we wouldn't hear the end of it. How it was deliberate. Retaliation, childish blah blah blah.

Hamilton was way off the pace and lifting massively right until Bono told him Verstappen was 1 second behind. Then he floored it and then drove to the outside of the track even though he was instructed to pit with the entry on the left part of the straight.

The race sorted itself out in the end. :lol:
Unbelievable stuff. How can people still support this guy. I can't even call his behavior childish, it's something else.
I think it's because it's a blatant lie from the usual suspects? Approaching the corner before the pit entrance, Hamilton is 1.3 seconds ahead of Verstappen. As soon as he exits the tight chicane, he pulls off the racing line, then straightens the car, Verstappen passes him (as Hamilton has pulled out of his way) and then Hamilton applies steering angle once more and pulls into the pits.

Verstappen is 2 seconds behind when Russel stops gapping him (the lap after the puncture). When Russell passed the three-wheeled Hamilton, Verstappen was 2 seconds behind him. They go through the tight Chicane almost immediately afterwards and Verstappen passes Hamilton and is 3.6 behind. So he lost 1.6 in that final chicane. I guess having four tyres is a design advantage over three when it comes to cornering at speed, who knew. I know Hamilton's beaten Verstappen with a three wheel car before but...

If Hamilton had "cost 3 seconds" then I guess Verstappen was already ahead of Russel before the puncture and then magically teleported Verstappen backwards?

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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basti313 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:42 pm
Agreed. But the interesting factor is...all street tracks are better than Monaco. Just because they have a straight. So the big question is...when does Monaco get a straight?
You could remove the Nouvelle Chicane at Monaco, but I don't see how that would make the circuit safer?! That chicane has been there for a long time, with good reason. There is literally zero run-off at Tabac. :wtf:

Tabac to Rascasse was previously a straight run down to the (previously tighter) Rascasse hairpin too, before the swimming pool was built unless I'm mistaken. But again there is no run-off at Rascasse.

marcel171281
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:44 am
basti313 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:42 pm
Agreed. But the interesting factor is...all street tracks are better than Monaco. Just because they have a straight. So the big question is...when does Monaco get a straight?
You could remove the Nouvelle Chicane at Monaco, but I don't see how that would make the circuit safer?! That chicane has been there for a long time, with good reason. There is literally zero run-off at Tabac. :wtf:

Tabac to Rascasse was previously a straight run down to the (previously tighter) Rascasse hairpin too, before the swimming pool was built unless I'm mistaken. But again there is no run-off at Rascasse.
They should leave Monaco as it is IMHO.

But IF changes have to be made, why not move the chicane slighty further towards tabac, incl the chicane runoff. They don't need that full straight after the tunnel to overtake. But, I have no idea if that is physically possible with buildings etc..

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SiLo
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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Incognito wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:19 am
Wouter wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:20 am
Verstappen admits that he pushed Leclerc off (so he admits that Leclerc would've made the corner) and both Verstappen and Red Bull knew what had happened, that he'd gained the place illegally...and didn't give the place back.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be absolutely fine with saying whatever made me look good after the race, I've already won. I trashed Leclerc's tyres for 16 laps and robbed a faster car of the ability to build up a gap to me over the first stint. Saying "Oops, sorry." as I wave the winner's trophy around costs me absolutely nothing.
This is exactly the problem with these stupid 5s penalties. Just make them give the position back within X number of laps, or get a drive through for ignoring stewards directions. Why are the FIA and the stewards so against cleaning up the racing?
Felipe Baby!

mendis
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:59 am
Incognito wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:19 am
Wouter wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:20 am
Verstappen admits that he pushed Leclerc off (so he admits that Leclerc would've made the corner) and both Verstappen and Red Bull knew what had happened, that he'd gained the place illegally...and didn't give the place back.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be absolutely fine with saying whatever made me look good after the race, I've already won. I trashed Leclerc's tyres for 16 laps and robbed a faster car of the ability to build up a gap to me over the first stint. Saying "Oops, sorry." as I wave the winner's trophy around costs me absolutely nothing.
This is exactly the problem with these stupid 5s penalties. Just make them give the position back within X number of laps, or get a drive through for ignoring stewards directions. Why are the FIA and the stewards so against cleaning up the racing?
Teams play around based on the understanding of penalty system. If they know penalty for such a foul is a drive through, then they won't. I remember Hulk cutting a corner to overtake in Abu Dhabi when it was notoriously difficult to overtake there and gain upper hand in constructors championship points as a Renault driver. He comfortably opened 5 second gap, which wouldn't have managed if he was behind. There are hoards of people, commentators, teams, drivers and team principals that cry out loud if these penalties are increased in severity. But in isolation when they are affected, they cry foul. So there is a lot of hypocrisy there to be addressed.

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SiLo
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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mendis wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:34 pm
SiLo wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:59 am
Incognito wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:19 am
Verstappen admits that he pushed Leclerc off (so he admits that Leclerc would've made the corner) and both Verstappen and Red Bull knew what had happened, that he'd gained the place illegally...and didn't give the place back.

If I was Verstappen, I'd be absolutely fine with saying whatever made me look good after the race, I've already won. I trashed Leclerc's tyres for 16 laps and robbed a faster car of the ability to build up a gap to me over the first stint. Saying "Oops, sorry." as I wave the winner's trophy around costs me absolutely nothing.
This is exactly the problem with these stupid 5s penalties. Just make them give the position back within X number of laps, or get a drive through for ignoring stewards directions. Why are the FIA and the stewards so against cleaning up the racing?
Teams play around based on the understanding of penalty system. If they know penalty for such a foul is a drive through, then they won't. I remember Hulk cutting a corner to overtake in Abu Dhabi when it was notoriously difficult to overtake there and gain upper hand in constructors championship points as a Renault driver. He comfortably opened 5 second gap, which wouldn't have managed if he was behind. There are hoards of people, commentators, teams, drivers and team principals that cry out loud if these penalties are increased in severity. But in isolation when they are affected, they cry foul. So there is a lot of hypocrisy there to be addressed.
Thankfully, the FIA and the Stewards can ignore all of those idiots thinking their agenda is more important than having safer, cleaner racing.
Felipe Baby!

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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Incognito wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:34 am
avantman wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:20 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 2:21 pm


If another driver had done what Hamilton did today, we wouldn't hear the end of it. How it was deliberate. Retaliation, childish blah blah blah.

Hamilton was way off the pace and lifting massively right until Bono told him Verstappen was 1 second behind. Then he floored it and then drove to the outside of the track even though he was instructed to pit with the entry on the left part of the straight.

The race sorted itself out in the end. :lol:
Unbelievable stuff. How can people still support this guy. I can't even call his behavior childish, it's something else.
I think it's because it's a blatant lie from the usual suspects? Approaching the corner before the pit entrance, Hamilton is 1.3 seconds ahead of Verstappen. As soon as he exits the tight chicane, he pulls off the racing line, then straightens the car, Verstappen passes him (as Hamilton has pulled out of his way) and then Hamilton applies steering angle once more and pulls into the pits.

Verstappen is 2 seconds behind when Russel stops gapping him (the lap after the puncture). When Russell passed the three-wheeled Hamilton, Verstappen was 2 seconds behind him. They go through the tight Chicane almost immediately afterwards and Verstappen passes Hamilton and is 3.6 behind. So he lost 1.6 in that final chicane. I guess having four tyres is a design advantage over three when it comes to cornering at speed, who knew. I know Hamilton's beaten Verstappen with a three wheel car before but...

If Hamilton had "cost 3 seconds" then I guess Verstappen was already ahead of Russel before the puncture and then magically teleported Verstappen backwards?
Max himself said that Lewis was holding him up being in the middle of the track. How much time it cost exactly is debatable but that people who only and constantly, in this very topic for days for the Ocon moment, of which ocon was the instigator in the first place, complain about Max were totally silent about Lewis so imho the point is valid, that is hypocritical.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:13 pm
Seems that F1 knew what they were doing after all!
:lol: Yeah, holding a race in 10 degree (Celcius) weather at midnight at outrageous expense with no support categories is a brilliant idea.

How about adding perfectly good permanents circuit back on the calendar first -- the German GP, South Korea, Sepang, India etc etc? :wink:
Last edited by JordanMugen on Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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Magny cours.

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TFSA
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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mendis wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:34 pm
Teams play around based on the understanding of penalty system. If they know penalty for such a foul is a drive through, then they won't. I remember Hulk cutting a corner to overtake in Abu Dhabi when it was notoriously difficult to overtake there and gain upper hand in constructors championship points as a Renault driver. He comfortably opened 5 second gap, which wouldn't have managed if he was behind. There are hoards of people, commentators, teams, drivers and team principals that cry out loud if these penalties are increased in severity. But in isolation when they are affected, they cry foul. So there is a lot of hypocrisy there to be addressed.
The entire problem here is the F1 Stewards has gravitated towards that almost every penalty for on-track action is the same. Causing a collision? Always 5 seconds. Overtake off track? Always 5 seconds. Pushing another driver off the track? Always 5 seconds.

The last 10 second penalty i remember for a collision is Silverstone 21. Other than that, the only 10 second penalties we see are for not serving 5 second penalties properly. And Lawson got one in Zandvoort for blocking another driver in the pitlane.

5 second penalties absolutely still has a place, but Stewards should be more willing to dish out different penalties based on severity*.
Caused a collision due to a minor misjudgment? 5 seconds is fine. Caused a collision due to a major misjudgment? Just give 10 seconds. Or 15 (not in the rules, but rules can be changed). Or, in very egregious instances, a drive-through or stop-and-go.

Same with overtaking off track or pushing another driver off. If there are mitigating circumstances (like the low grip at the start of Vegas because of the oil spill) or it was a 50/50 case, then 5 seconds is fine. If it's egregious (like Russell on Ocon at Monza), then a drive-through is absolutely in place.

Some people will probably cry about inconsistency, but it's literally the job of the Stewards to judge incidents and dish out appropriate punishment.

And also, Stewards need to stop judging too many things as racing incidents. They've been doing that a lot lately. Hamilton in Qatar and Perez in Mexico were both judged as racing incident, despite both of them being the product of poor judgment, even for Lap 1/Turn 1 standards. And then you have stuff like Verstappen overtake on Leclerc in Austin, which wasn't even investigated, despite it being a very clear cut example of pushing another driver off the track. The Stewarding this year has been extremely mediocre.

EDIT: * When i say "based on severity", i mean based on the severity of the mistake, and not based on the severity of the outcome.

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2023 7:03 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 6:13 pm
Seems that F1 knew what they were doing after all!
:lol: Yeah, holding a race in 10 degree (Celcius) weather at midnight at outrageous expense with no support categories is a brilliant idea.

How about adding perfectly good permanents circuit back on the calendar first -- the German GP, South Korea, Sepang, India etc etc? :wink:
Well I also want good permanent circuits back…including Mugello!

But I expected Vegas to be way more boring…that’s what I’m talking about! It ended up being great!
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

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Sieper
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Re: 2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

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I would like mugello back too. Vegas was fine, ok great, the race was enjoyable but for me these city tracks are not really the best. Tow/drs and always (v)sc and potential for nasty crash.