2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Apexseal157
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:22 am
Apexseal157 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:03 am
P5!!! to be P4!!!! crazy stuff in a car that people thought wouldn't get out of q3
Given how power sensitive this track should be.. the cold conditions suggest that maybe alpine's main issue is engine performance when it gets hot?

Gasly once again showing brilliant performance. He's been one of the best drivers on the grid in the 2nd half of the season.
adds up, they always seem to be running with more cooling than the other teams, and pierre is a classy driver, very underrated

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Apexseal157 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:25 am
organic wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:22 am
Apexseal157 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:03 am
P5!!! to be P4!!!! crazy stuff in a car that people thought wouldn't get out of q3
Given how power sensitive this track should be.. the cold conditions suggest that maybe alpine's main issue is engine performance when it gets hot?

Gasly once again showing brilliant performance. He's been one of the best drivers on the grid in the 2nd half of the season.
adds up, they always seem to be running with more cooling than the other teams, and pierre is a classy driver, very underrated
A cooling impediment would be consistent with Renault being competitive in power yet not competitive.

Gasly is a solid upper midfield driver, however Red Bull Racing were not happy with his services and he was moved on. He was unable to duplicate Verstappen's data traces and Gasly (alledgedly) got into an argument with Newey due to demanding radical setup which the slick Red Bull Racing squad were not happy to oblige.

I don't think it clear that Gasly, while competent, is a superior driver for Alpine to contract than Alonso or Piastri.

After all, it is with good reason that Red Bull - a higher ranked team - were unhappy with Gasly.

IMO, Alpine would have been better served to contract Alonso and Piastri in a timely manner and drop Ocon and ignore Gasly.

If Ocon and Gasly are top tier drivers, why do Mercedes and Red Bull respectively, not want their driving services?! It seems unlikely Alpine knows something those teams - who possesses those drivers comparative data in relation to arguably higher rated drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen - don't.

IMO rival midfield team Mercedes Grand Prix has a superior driving lineup than Alpine F1. Alpine should attempt to put together a driving lineup more similar to that team.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:22 am
Apexseal157 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:03 am
P5!!! to be P4!!!! crazy stuff in a car that people thought wouldn't get out of q3
Given how power sensitive this track should be.. the cold conditions suggest that maybe alpine's main issue is engine performance when it gets hot?

Gasly once again showing brilliant performance. He's been one of the best drivers on the grid in the 2nd half of the season.
It has been suggested to me on another forum that the issue is that their cooling system is very inefficient/draggy. Since it's very cold in Vegas, they don't have to run much of it. It was very cold at Spa where Gasly was also very strong.
Where it's hot, they suffer.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 5:25 pm
Apexseal157 wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:25 am
organic wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:22 am


Given how power sensitive this track should be.. the cold conditions suggest that maybe alpine's main issue is engine performance when it gets hot?

Gasly once again showing brilliant performance. He's been one of the best drivers on the grid in the 2nd half of the season.
adds up, they always seem to be running with more cooling than the other teams, and pierre is a classy driver, very underrated
A cooling impediment would be consistent with Renault being competitive in power yet not competitive.

Gasly is a solid upper midfield driver, however Red Bull Racing were not happy with his services and he was moved on. He was unable to duplicate Verstappen's data traces and Gasly (alledgedly) got into an argument with Newey due to demanding radical setup which the slick Red Bull Racing squad were not happy to oblige.

I don't think it clear that Gasly, while competent, is a superior driver for Alpine to contract than Alonso or Piastri.

After all, it is with good reason that Red Bull - a higher ranked team - were unhappy with Gasly.

IMO, Alpine would have been better served to contract Alonso and Piastri in a timely manner and drop Ocon and ignore Gasly.

If Ocon and Gasly are top tier drivers, why do Mercedes and Red Bull respectively, not want their driving services?! It seems unlikely Alpine knows something those teams - who possesses those drivers comparative data in relation to arguably higher rated drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen - don't.

IMO rival midfield team Mercedes Grand Prix has a superior driving lineup than Alpine F1. Alpine should attempt to put together a driving lineup more similar to that team.
He's better than Ocon, that's for sure. Ocon keeps dragging himself into these stupid spats. Especially the stuff he does to keep his team mate behind in unforgivable.

Letting Alonso and Piastri both get away was a major sin that eventually cost people their jobs.

Mercedes let Ocon go cause Russel is better. They're both Toto Drivers. I think the 3 years deal was something that Toto worked out with Alpine to release Ocon. That deal setup the Piastri/Alonso disaster. It should never have been a 3 year deal. I still think Hulkenburg is a better driver and he could have been gotten for nothing.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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Motorsport.com first reported that the topic of engine equalisation had been put before the F1 Commission after an FIA analysis of the performance levels of the currently frozen specification of power units indicated that Alpine’s Renault engine is approximately 15-25Kw (20-33hp) down on its closely matched rivals – Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda.

Alpine is understood to have decided that since it had become clear the team did not have the full support from its rivals, despite what had previously been arranged under the good faith understanding, it was better to direct any resources it would have been spent on improving the output of its current engine instead on work to the new engine rules.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alpi ... /10550229/

That doesn't make any sense. How does that show an ambition for Alpine-Renault to win the 2024 or 2025 WDC and WCC? :wtf:

The new 2022 power unit was supposed to bring Renault to equal best or clear best power unit status. Yet it didn't happen - initially it was OK on power but unreliable and now it's reliable but down on power. At no point did it appear to have an advantage of 15-25kW over all lesser rival power units either.

What if the 2026 Renault unit is still not the best in field by a clear margin? What if it fails just like the 2022 power unit?! :wtf:

Surely there are too many times that Alpine-Renault have placed their bets on a future development, like the new 2022 power unit and chassis that were meant to bring Alpine a huge step and into WDC and WCC contention (having delayed investment in 2020 & 2021 power unit or chassis for this purpose), instead of maximising short term performance?

Not bothering to upgrade the 2024 & 2025 power unit within reliability clauses seems grossly unwise IMO. If the unit is 25Kw down now, how kilowatts will it be down by the 2025 season as the others continue to push reliability provisions (& ERS freedoms where applicable) to increase power: 30kW, 40kW?! How are Enstone supposed to build a competitive car in the 2025 season while being 40kW down on power?! :wtf:

“We quickly reached the conclusion that it was not worth our time and effort. Moreover, for such a small performance gain, it would be a distraction in our efforts towards the development of the 2026 PU project.”
- Bruno Famin

The Alpine racing boss seems to show a lack of racing ambition IMO.

I thought the 2026 engine budget cap is separate, so Renault are welcome to spend more on improvements to the old unit for 2024-2025, including hiring external consultants (or deploying resources from elsewhere within Renault) if Viry is already operating at maximum capacity? :?:

Also: cooling system development is free, right? It doesn't even count to wind tunnel hours. It is suposed at the moment that the Renault engine needs the most cooling. So to rectify this, Viry can work on making the engine able to run hotter (under "reliability" provisions, but as a bonus you get more thermal efficiency), and Enstone can work on a more efficient cooling system.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:34 pm
Motorsport.com first reported that the topic of engine equalisation had been put before the F1 Commission after an FIA analysis of the performance levels of the currently frozen specification of power units indicated that Alpine’s Renault engine is approximately 15-25Kw (20-33hp) down on its closely matched rivals – Ferrari, Mercedes and Honda.

Alpine is understood to have decided that since it had become clear the team did not have the full support from its rivals, despite what had previously been arranged under the good faith understanding, it was better to direct any resources it would have been spent on improving the output of its current engine instead on work to the new engine rules.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alpi ... /10550229/

That doesn't make any sense. How does that show an ambition for Alpine-Renault to win the 2024 or 2025 WDC and WCC? :wtf:
Come on, Alpine are not winning the titles in '24 and '25. The structure isn't in place yet. They just sacked off a bunch of high level technical people and replacements that Otmar recruited will trickle in after gardening leaves in the next few years. Bruno is interim by his own admission.

'26 will be the next frontier. There's no point wasting the resource.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:45 pm
'26 will be the next frontier. There's no point wasting the resource.
'22 was supposed to be the next frontier. Nobody has any faith in Alpine-Renault being racers who always push the rules to the limit.

What if the '26 does not come out and take pole position and contend for race victories, what then? :wtf:

Just because '24 and '25 are "old" regulations, does not mean that Viry and Enstone should not be pushing flat out with development IMO. McLaren-Mercedes have potentially brought themselves from the back into 2024 title contention if they make a further step, why couldn't Alpine-Renault do the same?
Last edited by JordanMugen on Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:49 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:45 pm
'26 will be the next frontier. There's no point wasting the resource.
'22 was supposed to be the next frontier. Nobody has any faith in Alpine-Renault being racers who always push the rules to the limit.

What if the '26 does not come out and take pole position and contend for race victories, what then? :wtf:

Just because '24 and '25 are "old" regulations, does not mean that Viry and Enstone should not be pushing flat out with development IMO.
They might not win in '26, but from a planning point of view, the '22 cycle is a lost frontier. They are too far back.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:51 pm
They might not win in '26, but from a planning point of view, the '22 cycle is a lost frontier. They are too far back.
I strongly disagree. The development rate of Aston Martin and McLaren shows that everything is to play for.

To support Enstone's chassis development, therefore Viry should push for maximum reliability & ERS upgrades on the '24-'25 power unit, to bring it both on par and then past the performance & reliability of Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari.

Who knows? Maybe many techniques developed will be applicable to the new units. :wink:

If the 2026 is separate under the power unit budget cap, there is no reason not to spare no expense on the '24-'25 unit if those expenses and employees do not count to the '26 unit.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:52 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:51 pm
They might not win in '26, but from a planning point of view, the '22 cycle is a lost frontier. They are too far back.
I strongly disagree. The development rate of Aston Martin and McLaren shows that everything is to play for.

To support Enstone's chassis development, therefore Viry should push for maximum reliability & ERS upgrades on the '24-'25 power unit, to bring it both on par and then past the performance & reliability of Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari.

Who knows? Maybe many techniques developed will be applicable to the new units. :wink:

If the 2026 is separate under the power unit budget cap, there is no reason not to spare no expense on the '24-'25 unit if those expenses and employees do not count to the '26 unit.
What's new for 2026 is the PU CAP. That should prevent them being out spent like in years past.

Speaking of the CAP on the chassis side, there is no reason not spend to the CAP in 2024 and 2025. You can't save it all and spend it all for 2026, the CAP prevents that. You could get started early on the 2026 car though.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:06 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:12 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:18 am


I do not feel, and have never even suggested, that Alonso needed to prove himself. The opposite in fact. I don't know where you got that idea.

Of course it was a power move by Rossi. Pretty much everyone agrees Rossi's management style was horrible and he totally mismanaged the team. But I wasn't asking about Rossi.
Otmar also played the same game by refusing to admit how much the team cost Alonso, to the point of claiming it was his own fault, and furthermore Otmar started questioning Alonso's age.
As per my previous comments, Otmar did in fact admit that reliability issues had cost Alonso, while saying that some of the lost points were down to Alonso (which was entirely accurate). Otmar's comments do come off a bit one-sided or defensive, but that's to be expected. When a driver is regularly and publicly undermining the team with claims so exaggerated it became a running joke, sooner or later the boss has to stick up for the other 500+ members of the team a little bit.

EDIT: On the subject of points lost, at the time Alonso was making his claims about "60-70" points lost, he'd actually lost about 47. By my count 37 of those were down to the team (including third-party suppliers), while 10 (a not insignificant 21%) were nothing to do with the team. https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-many ... t-in-2022/

As for Otmar's comments about Alonso's age, it was always about the reality that eventually Alonso's age would catch up with him, and the team wanted some flexibility for when that happened. There's nothing wrong with that. Even Alonso didn't criticise Otmar about it at the time.
Wake up man
The 2022 season was one of the greatest antics in history, I still remember it very well and I analyzed all the races in detail to another person who spoke like you. Barhain Alonso battery problems, Jeddah car problems, forced retirement and was in front despite the dirty play of Ocon in 7th position, Melbourne one of Alonso's greatest qualifications (first two sectors he was on the front row with the Alpine) ruined for a another problem with the car and he broke his hand (he continued to drive for 4 grands prix including Melbourne too), Imola rupture of Alonso's sidepod at the start of the race, Miami senseless penalty for Alonso who had also served the seconds earned, Catalunya last in the points after the team in qualifying gave him the wrong seconds and he didn't make the cut, Monaco and Baku no problem, Canada sensational qualifying, battery problems in the race and I think the most disgusting strategy I've ever seen in F1 to let Ocon get ahead of him they gave him a very long stint longer than Ferrari Mercedes and Redbull if you don't believe it go and watch the race and in fact in the end Alonso punches the steering wheel, doesn't take part in the interview at the end of the race and does not speak in team radio at the end. Silverstone ok, Austria ahahahahah problems at the start due to the battery once again only and only in Alonso's car, they coincidentally forgot to recharge the car, from the pitlane he reaches the points, the safety car comes in due to Sainz's accident and What happen? hahahah they put the tires wrong and he makes 2 pitstops instead of one, he still gets into the points with a sensational overtaking on the last lap on bottas. France ok, Hungary Ocon throws him out and lets Hamilton pass and then Ricciardo gets ahead of him anyway, Spa ok, Zandvoort ok, Monza retires due to technical problem, Singapore kept behind with the Alpine Verstappen and obviously another technical problem, Suzuka shitty strategy which puts Ocon ahead and gets to the points, Austin despite starting behind, the accidents, ultimately overtakes Ocon anyway and was lapping 1 second faster than Lui on the same compound, Mexico further withdrawal due to a technical problem and was sixth ahead of Ocon, Brazil sensational race overtaking Perez, Abu Dhabi in the race they tell him to withdraw the car without Alonso having suffered any problems and Fernando himself doesn't say a word, then in the F1 technical forums I discovered through some users that they had done it intentionally on purpose to avoid Alonso finishing ahead of Ocon in the standings, there is also an image of the mechanics laughing. Alonso joining Aston Martin in 2023 was a liberation.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:52 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:51 pm
They might not win in '26, but from a planning point of view, the '22 cycle is a lost frontier. They are too far back.
I strongly disagree. The development rate of Aston Martin and McLaren shows that everything is to play for.

To support Enstone's chassis development, therefore Viry should push for maximum reliability & ERS upgrades on the '24-'25 power unit, to bring it both on par and then past the performance & reliability of Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari.

Who knows? Maybe many techniques developed will be applicable to the new units. :wink:

If the 2026 is separate under the power unit budget cap, there is no reason not to spare no expense on the '24-'25 unit if those expenses and employees do not count to the '26 unit.
They should have the chassis developed by Lotus as they did until 2021, they should buy new structures such as the wind tunnel and they should hire capable staff. What did they do instead? They started hiring incompetents like Sfaznauer, throwing out Budkowski (former McLaren aerodynamic leader and also in the FIA) and Pat Fry who always made mediocre cars like Alonso's Ferrari

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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xReVo wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:18 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:52 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:51 pm
They might not win in '26, but from a planning point of view, the '22 cycle is a lost frontier. They are too far back.
I strongly disagree. The development rate of Aston Martin and McLaren shows that everything is to play for.

To support Enstone's chassis development, therefore Viry should push for maximum reliability & ERS upgrades on the '24-'25 power unit, to bring it both on par and then past the performance & reliability of Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari.

Who knows? Maybe many techniques developed will be applicable to the new units. :wink:

If the 2026 is separate under the power unit budget cap, there is no reason not to spare no expense on the '24-'25 unit if those expenses and employees do not count to the '26 unit.
They should have the chassis developed by Lotus as they did until 2021, they should buy new structures such as the wind tunnel and they should hire capable staff. What did they do instead? They started hiring incompetents like Sfaznauer, throwing out Budkowski (former McLaren aerodynamic leader and also in the FIA) and Pat Fry who always made mediocre cars like Alonso's Ferrari
They upgraded their wind tunnel before Rossi. They've spent alot of money upgrading their infrastructure. Think it's top 5.

Pat Fry left to Williams. His cars came close to winning at Ferrari and he did win with Mclaren. They should have hung to him. I do agree, they have anonymous working over there.

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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:48 pm
xReVo wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:18 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:52 pm


I strongly disagree. The development rate of Aston Martin and McLaren shows that everything is to play for.

To support Enstone's chassis development, therefore Viry should push for maximum reliability & ERS upgrades on the '24-'25 power unit, to bring it both on par and then past the performance & reliability of Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari.

Who knows? Maybe many techniques developed will be applicable to the new units. :wink:

If the 2026 is separate under the power unit budget cap, there is no reason not to spare no expense on the '24-'25 unit if those expenses and employees do not count to the '26 unit.
They should have the chassis developed by Lotus as they did until 2021, they should buy new structures such as the wind tunnel and they should hire capable staff. What did they do instead? They started hiring incompetents like Sfaznauer, throwing out Budkowski (former McLaren aerodynamic leader and also in the FIA) and Pat Fry who always made mediocre cars like Alonso's Ferrari
They upgraded their wind tunnel before Rossi. They've spent alot of money upgrading their infrastructure. Think it's top 5.

Pat Fry left to Williams. His cars came close to winning at Ferrari and he did win with Mclaren. They should have hung to him. I do agree, they have anonymous working over there.
No, their infrastructure is ridiculous, have you seen the place where they design cars? It's really small, not to mention the simulator that remained in 2006. Pat Fry worked at McLaren during the Newey period, we saw all his shortcomings at Ferrari where he churned out mediocre cars in the face of crazy expenses. You never came close to a winning car, only in 2010 you were behind Redbull and McLaren, in 2012 a total collapse. Either you agree or you don't agree, Alpine's results prove me right and in fact he ended up in one of the worst teams in the championship

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dren
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Re: 2023 Alpine F1 Team

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After the team cleaned house, I don't expect much to come from them next year.
Honda!