2018 in-season testing thread

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:03 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:55 pm
Let me highlight a perspective that none so far has wanted to look into. A young rookie walking into a team that is known for it's pressure cooker atmosphere. A team that hasn't been kind to it's drivers if they couldn't deliver. Against a driver who is a 4 time world champion and has been a supreme qualifier. I don't understand how anyone can think it's going to be a cake walk for the rookie, regardless of what the junior level accomplishments are. A few initial failures, casts devils of self doubt in the mind that might ultimately be a cause for a never ending fall.
"Pressure" in this context is entirely self generated. A driver can feel pressured or not: it is up to him. If Leclerc comes to the first race thinking "no pressure, let's just get settled in to the team and see how it goes" then he'll do much better than if he turns up thinking "I must make an impact, I must qualify on the front row" etc.

In this situation, the pressure could be Vettel's because he might be thinking "I've got to stamp my authority on this lad from the start". That puts himself under pressure, not Leclerc.

The best thing for both of them is to turn up thinking "m'eh, whatever" and just let their ability do its work.

The worst way to prove yourself to others is to feel you absolutely have to.
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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Big Tea » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:59 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:03 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:55 pm
Let me highlight a perspective that none so far has wanted to look into. A young rookie walking into a team that is known for it's pressure cooker atmosphere. A team that hasn't been kind to it's drivers if they couldn't deliver. Against a driver who is a 4 time world champion and has been a supreme qualifier. I don't understand how anyone can think it's going to be a cake walk for the rookie, regardless of what the junior level accomplishments are. A few initial failures, casts devils of self doubt in the mind that might ultimately be a cause for a never ending fall.
"Pressure" in this context is entirely self generated. A driver can feel pressured or not: it is up to him. If Leclerc comes to the first race thinking "no pressure, let's just get settled in to the team and see how it goes" then he'll do much better than if he turns up thinking "I must make an impact, I must qualify on the front row" etc.

In this situation, the pressure could be Vettel's because he might be thinking "I've got to stamp my authority on this lad from the start". That puts himself under pressure, not Leclerc.

The best thing for both of them is to turn up thinking "m'eh, whatever" and just let their ability do its work.

The worst way to prove yourself to others is to feel you absolutely have to.
I think much of Vettel's bad form this year has been due to the pressure of needing to perform.
As you say, you play your own game and things happen in the right order. Chase the game and the thread starts to unravel, then you fiddle with the loose end and wind up with a ball of wool instead of a jumper.

The extra urgency has made him push just that little bit harder and mistake piles on mistake and he has lost position then races then the championship. For instance, if you play rugby and know there is a big event coming up and you do not want to be injured, you can bet if you back off a little you get smashed, which you would not have had you played your normal game

If (as you say) he feels he has to show the young whippersnapper who is boss, he may well lose the plot through trying too hard
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by marmer » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:01 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:59 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:03 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:55 pm
Let me highlight a perspective that none so far has wanted to look into. A young rookie walking into a team that is known for it's pressure cooker atmosphere. A team that hasn't been kind to it's drivers if they couldn't deliver. Against a driver who is a 4 time world champion and has been a supreme qualifier. I don't understand how anyone can think it's going to be a cake walk for the rookie, regardless of what the junior level accomplishments are. A few initial failures, casts devils of self doubt in the mind that might ultimately be a cause for a never ending fall.
"Pressure" in this context is entirely self generated. A driver can feel pressured or not: it is up to him. If Leclerc comes to the first race thinking "no pressure, let's just get settled in to the team and see how it goes" then he'll do much better than if he turns up thinking "I must make an impact, I must qualify on the front row" etc.

In this situation, the pressure could be Vettel's because he might be thinking "I've got to stamp my authority on this lad from the start". That puts himself under pressure, not Leclerc.

The best thing for both of them is to turn up thinking "m'eh, whatever" and just let their ability do its work.

The worst way to prove yourself to others is to feel you absolutely have to.
I think much of Vettel's bad form this year has been due to the pressure of needing to perform.
As you say, you play your own game and things happen in the right order. Chase the game and the thread starts to unravel, then you fiddle with the loose end and wind up with a ball of wool instead of a jumper.

The extra urgency has made him push just that little bit harder and mistake piles on mistake and he has lost position then races then the championship.

If (as you say) he feels he has to show the young whippersnapper who is boss, he may well lose the plot through trying too hard
Let's not forget he didn't exactly like the he honey badger turning up and out performing him

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by NathanOlder » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:50 pm

indeed, like I said before, Vettel has lost to a younger team mate, every single time :lol: 8)
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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by GPR -A » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:28 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:50 pm
indeed, like I said before, Vettel has lost to a younger team mate, every single time :lol: 8)
Just like Michael did, in an insignificant battle! I had explained this in another place, but will do it again and this applies to Michael's Mercedes tenure and Vettel's 2014.

On one hand is a driver that has captured the world by having driven cars that allowed him to do so and then suddenly lands up in a car that hardly offered an opportunity to fight at the sharp end, which he was so used to. On the other, there is a newbie in the team who is out there to prove himself, gets to drive a car which was better than anything he had driven up to that point. In terms of how each one is feeling psychologically, is at opposite ends of a spectrum. While the champion driver is dejected to drive a non-championship contender, the newbie is all giggles and rush of blood to go out there and perform. Quite naturally, stark difference in the outcomes. That kind of comparison is only good to satisfy the egos if suits one's narrative.

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by NathanOlder » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:00 am

GPR -A wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:28 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:50 pm
indeed, like I said before, Vettel has lost to a younger team mate, every single time :lol: 8)
Just like Michael did, in an insignificant battle! I had explained this in another place, but will do it again and this applies to Michael's Mercedes tenure and Vettel's 2014.

On one hand is a driver that has captured the world by having driven cars that allowed him to do so and then suddenly lands up in a car that hardly offered an opportunity to fight at the sharp end, which he was so used to. On the other, there is a newbie in the team who is out there to prove himself, gets to drive a car which was better than anything he had driven up to that point. In terms of how each one is feeling psychologically, is at opposite ends of a spectrum. While the champion driver is dejected to drive a non-championship contender, the newbie is all giggles and rush of blood to go out there and perform. Quite naturally, stark difference in the outcomes. That kind of comparison is only good to satisfy the egos if suits one's narrative.

Maybe so, If thats the case, I would see it as a lack of professionalism 'I'm going to do a --- job because I can't win a championship'. Michael didn't do it in 96, Lewis didn't in 09, Senna in 92 & 93.
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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by GPR -A » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:42 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:00 am
GPR -A wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:28 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:50 pm
indeed, like I said before, Vettel has lost to a younger team mate, every single time :lol: 8)
Just like Michael did, in an insignificant battle! I had explained this in another place, but will do it again and this applies to Michael's Mercedes tenure and Vettel's 2014.

On one hand is a driver that has captured the world by having driven cars that allowed him to do so and then suddenly lands up in a car that hardly offered an opportunity to fight at the sharp end, which he was so used to. On the other, there is a newbie in the team who is out there to prove himself, gets to drive a car which was better than anything he had driven up to that point. In terms of how each one is feeling psychologically, is at opposite ends of a spectrum. While the champion driver is dejected to drive a non-championship contender, the newbie is all giggles and rush of blood to go out there and perform. Quite naturally, stark difference in the outcomes. That kind of comparison is only good to satisfy the egos if suits one's narrative.

Maybe so, If thats the case, I would see it as a lack of professionalism 'I'm going to do a --- job because I can't win a championship'. Michael didn't do it in 96, Lewis didn't in 09, Senna in 92 & 93.
Michael's situation in 96 was more akin to Lewis' 2013 and Vettel's 2015 and in all those instances, they did bloody well to start their stint in a new team.

09, 92 and 93? That proves that Kovalainen and Berger weren't at the same level as Rosberg and Ricciardo in their talent and hunger for success.

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Mach » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:02 pm

r101 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:06 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:07 pm
Mach wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:00 pm

If yes, how long will it take Maurizio Arrivabene et-al to terminate Sebs contract? There must be a non-performance clause in there somewhere ](*,)

Seb clearly underperformed these past couple years with several unforced emotional mistakes costing Ferrari WCC $points$ :-({|=
If Vettel has underperformed what has Raikkonen been doing?? Beaten, as he has been, by 181 points over 2 seasons.
Raikkonen needs specific kind of behaviour from his car to perform well. You saw how he did when Lotus gave him what he needs, even in an otherwise mediocre car. Seb is 'prima ballerina' now.
True enough. All drivers have their car set up preferences. Unfortunately, teams set up car behaviour to suit their #1 driver and the expense of the other.

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Morteza » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:04 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Boudica » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:58 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:13 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:28 pm
It rather depends what Leclerc's contract says, I'd guess. If Leclerc's signed up to a definite, written in blood, number 2 position then Vettel won't worry. If he's not worried he'll drive better and so be able to outpace the youngster.
I can't believe they would do that, If Charles turns out faster (very possible) then he has to give way to Seb, only for Seb to have a meltdown 3yrs running and lose another title. It would be very foolish of Ferrari, they won't do that. Kimi was pushed in to a number 2 after years of being beaten. He started each year with every chance, but after 4 races and the beginning of the European calendar, Ferrari could see it was up to Seb so they use Kimi accordingly and rightfully so.
Kimi was immediately placed in a no.2 position this season. He had 3 DNF's at the start of the season, that is a large deficit to make up through a season. He wasn't exactly slow, or much behind Vettel. Right from the start he received no.2 strategies. Ferrari are paying Vettel the big bucks to deliver a WDC. However, as we have witnessed this season being fast alone isn't enough, you also need to have good racecraft and strategies as well. If Vettel and Leclerc compete against each other for the WDC, Ferrari will lose the WDC against Mercedes. Mercedes has designated Bottas into the no.2 position, the whole Mercedes team are optimized to give Lewis more points. If Ferrari wants a WDC next season they will have to make one driver the no.1 in the team, otherwise they lose, again.

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Wynters » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:07 pm
If Vettel has underperformed what has Raikkonen been doing?? Beaten, as he has been, by 181 points over 2 seasons.
Outperforming Seb for the last 2/3rds of this season despite suffering all the serious mechanical failures?

If you neutralise the races where Kimi was removed from the GP due to the actions (or inactions) of others, then I think he outscores Seb across the whole season. Now, to be clear, 'ifs' and 'buts' aren't facts, but don't be lulled into a false sense of performance by just looking at total points score.

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by jjn9128 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:25 pm

Wynters wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:07 pm
If Vettel has underperformed what has Raikkonen been doing?? Beaten, as he has been, by 181 points over 2 seasons.
Outperforming Seb for the last 2/3rds of this season despite suffering all the serious mechanical failures?

If you neutralise the races where Kimi was removed from the GP due to the actions (or inactions) of others, then I think he outscores Seb across the whole season. Now, to be clear, 'ifs' and 'buts' aren't facts, but don't be lulled into a false sense of performance by just looking at total points score.
That's utter hogwash. How do you explain 2015, 2016 and 2017 - all of which Vettel beat Raikkonen. Raikkonen had 4 DNF's this year, 2 were mechanical failures, 1 from the pit stop fiasco in Bahrain, and 1 from accident damage. In none of those was he ahead of Vettel. I can only think of 2 events where he significantly outperformed Vettel and that's USA and Brazil. There were many events where they were close, certainly in qualifying, mostly though Vettel was ahead.

There's a weird phenomenon where certain drivers have their performances selectively dissected and over-criticized for what appears, to me anyway, to be nationalistic sentiment from Brits against Germans - "2 world wars and 1 world cup" and other crud like that. Rosberg beat Hamilton fair and square in 2016 - not because Hamilton had more failures. Those people never go the other way and consider Rosberg's failures in 2015 as an explanation for Hamilton winning the title. Vettel seems to be the current whipping boy and I just can't think of a reason for it - other than a sort of 1970's British nationalism and because he is German.

The teams have the data on the drivers and for some reason Vettel is being retained while Raikkonen is being cut loose... makes so much sense if Raikkonen was the better performer.
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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by netoperek » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:04 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:25 pm
Wynters wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:47 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:07 pm
If Vettel has underperformed what has Raikkonen been doing?? Beaten, as he has been, by 181 points over 2 seasons.
Outperforming Seb for the last 2/3rds of this season despite suffering all the serious mechanical failures?

If you neutralise the races where Kimi was removed from the GP due to the actions (or inactions) of others, then I think he outscores Seb across the whole season. Now, to be clear, 'ifs' and 'buts' aren't facts, but don't be lulled into a false sense of performance by just looking at total points score.
That's utter hogwash. How do you explain 2015, 2016 and 2017 - all of which Vettel beat Raikkonen. Raikkonen had 4 DNF's this year, 2 were mechanical failures, 1 from the pit stop fiasco in Bahrain, and 1 from accident damage. In none of those was he ahead of Vettel. I can only think of 2 events where he significantly outperformed Vettel and that's USA and Brazil. There were many events where they were close, certainly in qualifying, mostly though Vettel was ahead.

There's a weird phenomenon where certain drivers have their performances selectively dissected and over-criticized for what appears, to me anyway, to be nationalistic sentiment from Brits against Germans - "2 world wars and 1 world cup" and other crud like that. Rosberg beat Hamilton fair and square in 2016 - not because Hamilton had more failures. Those people never go the other way and consider Rosberg's failures in 2015 as an explanation for Hamilton winning the title. Vettel seems to be the current whipping boy and I just can't think of a reason for it - other than a sort of 1970's British nationalism and because he is German.

The teams have the data on the drivers and for some reason Vettel is being retained while Raikkonen is being cut loose... makes so much sense if Raikkonen was the better performer.
Jjn, English is not my native language, so I may have misunderstood Wynter's post, but I got the impression that he meant that overall performances of Kimi and Seb have probably not been as straight forward as points difference would suggest, while underlining the speculative nature of his opinion which states that Raikkonen upped his game in a specific period of time.
How have You jumped from that to the conclusion that it's an obvious instance of a nationalistic based over-criticizm is beyond me. There has been no evidence of such bias in Wynter's post, I'd even say that he merely tried to give a different, perhaps wider, perspective to Your statement. Ironically, that would make Your post, in my view at least, THE selective, biased and nationalistic by imposing such things without any meaningful evidence whatsoever.
That being said, subjective opinions are what they are - biased by definition. It doesn't automatically imply nationalistic background, though some of it naturally may be a factor.
In here though, it's good to operate on facts, maybe challenge some statemetns with analisis and proposing different points of view. Such discussion may be worthwhile.
Tabloid and populistic type discussions on the other hand are widely available elsewhere, so let's keep such lower forms of hate entertainment far from here.

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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by TAG » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:05 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:25 pm
There's a weird phenomenon where certain drivers have their performances selectively dissected and over-criticized for what appears, to me anyway, to be nationalistic sentiment from Brits against Germans - "2 world wars and 1 world cup" and other crud like that. Rosberg beat Hamilton fair and square in 2016 - not because Hamilton had more failures. Those people never go the other way and consider Rosberg's failures in 2015 as an explanation for Hamilton winning the title. Vettel seems to be the current whipping boy and I just can't think of a reason for it - other than a sort of 1970's British nationalism and because he is German.
Your perception here is obviously something you're looking at through a very warped lens. Maybe the fact that Vettel has cursed out FiA officials, thrown his car at a competitor and fallen apart at the seams throwing the team under the bus two years running now has something to do with it?
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Re: 2018 in-season testing thread

Post by Phil » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:16 pm

Boudica wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:58 pm
Mercedes has designated Bottas into the no.2 position, the whole Mercedes team are optimized to give Lewis more points.
That’s not true at all. If Bottas gets into supporting role, it’s not because the team see him as such, it will because he simply isnt performing as good as Lewis. To not play a supporting role, he simply needs to beat Lewis, especially in qualifying. If he doesnt do that and fades away in points, then yes, he will have to play a supportive role, just as he did this year.

It’s all in the hands of Bottas himself. He has equal and every opportunity.
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