2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems
mwillems
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 am
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:37 pm
Nothing, but then they might be able to solve their tyre/suspension issues without noticable new parts, larger/more sensitive pistons in the dampers, etc.
And they don't have to worry about not being able to switch the hypersofts on properly for qualifying either.

I only hear bits and pieces so I can't comment on anything bar there's some new BB parts.
The Hopefulls are blaming the suspension for their own comfort. I say Suspension problems are just too easy to solve mathematically for these big teams. You know what is hard to solve mathematically though? Yup. You guessed it. Shoddy aerodynamic correlation!
Hell, blaming it on suspensions is so easy when a Niagara falls of dodgy data chokes the database and things are too advanced to start over. McLaren know they messed up royally. The car was supposed to be within half a second of RedBull remember? Yes we are told (ask stoffel ;-) ) the aero balance is great and all. That means something's working right. But no Mclaren boss is talking about the piss poor downforce to drag ratio. Someone screwed up. Tim Goss took the fall. But he aint the head of aero. Peter Prodromu is. But guess what. Pete is zak's star signing.. Can't fire that guy without losing credibility.
It may be that EB's words can be ignored and he isn't telling the full story, but he didn't talk about drag efficiency, he said they had to run high downforce because of the low corner grip. So even with good wing efficiency you'd have to run high downforce to make this work, which is not ideal.

This suggests that while efficiency would help alleviate the issue, it isn't the issue itself, unless it is the diffuser at low speeds as Godlameroso suggests. Let's see what the BB parts are that arrive in France.

techman
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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You need to understand basic physics. Alonso may be a great driver, but he cannot make a car go after than it is capable of going. Therefore the true pace of the car is the pace that Alonso gets out of it.
well what i meant is alonso is an elite driver, along with few other like lewis, max vettel ric. they can extract the max of the car whereas there are other drivers out there that 2nd level drivers who are ok but cant extract the few tenths that these elite can extract.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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I do not know enough about the design stuff to have an opinion if truth be told, but my gut feeling is that they have a correlation problem between design/simulation and reality.
They also have an attitude problem. We are entitled to see Mclaren as the almighty team they were, but are realising now they have slipped to just a good midfield team.
They seem not to accept this and are still not stepping back and getting the fundamentals right before inventing and fitting superduper stuff noone else has.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:03 pm
You need to understand basic physics. Alonso may be a great driver, but he cannot make a car go after than it is capable of going. Therefore the true pace of the car is the pace that Alonso gets out of it.
Yeah drivers are irrelevant, it doesn´t matter if he´s Alonso or Stroll :lol: :lol:

Now seriously, I know what you mean and agree, but when you read something like this it looks like if drivers can´t make any difference.

No driver can outperform his car, true, but we should also note no driver can get 100% of his car potential, none, not even the greatest ever, no matter who´s he. That would imply perfect qualy laps for the whole race, and even the greatest drivers struggle to make a single perfect lap in qualy, so in race trim that´s simply impossible for the whole race.

So a top driver getting 95% of his car potential (percentages invented), when the average F1 driver gets 93% of his car potential can actually beat faster cars and make it look a better car than it acually is :wink:

makecry
makecry
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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techman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:10 pm
You need to understand basic physics. Alonso may be a great driver, but he cannot make a car go after than it is capable of going. Therefore the true pace of the car is the pace that Alonso gets out of it.
well what i meant is alonso is an elite driver, along with few other like lewis, max vettel ric. they can extract the max of the car whereas there are other drivers out there that 2nd level drivers who are ok but cant extract the few tenths that these elite can extract.

I honestly wouldn't put Seb in that group. He was 0.21% slower than Ricciardo over a season in a team built around him.. I have never seen a multiple WDC being 0.21% slower than a non-wdc teammate new to the team especially when the team is built around that driver but yes I agree.

Benii6
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:26 pm
I do not know enough about the design stuff to have an opinion if truth be told, but my gut feeling is that they have a correlation problem between design/simulation and reality.
They also have an attitude problem. We are entitled to see Mclaren as the almighty team they were, but are realising now they have slipped to just a good midfield team.
They seem not to accept this and are still not stepping back and getting the fundamentals right before inventing and fitting superduper stuff noone else has.
Because a good attitude makes the car go faster. What?
In your opinion they should accept they're a midfield team and then they'll have a chance to be good. WHAT??
What a bunch of crap. Technical forum my ass.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:26 pm
I do not know enough about the design stuff to have an opinion if truth be told, but my gut feeling is that they have a correlation problem between design/simulation and reality.
They also have an attitude problem. We are entitled to see Mclaren as the almighty team they were, but are realising now they have slipped to just a good midfield team.
They seem not to accept this and are still not stepping back and getting the fundamentals right before inventing and fitting superduper stuff noone else has.
Well, I posted a article some time ago on Marca where they talked about a correlation problem, which they said was the reason why all the updates were delayed by months. Doesn't sound so strange after all. I really don't understand why people are still acting like they are doing ok this year. They switched to Renault to be clear 4th, they are now fighting with Toro Rosso, Haas and Force India. There seems to be no leadership at all, because who's actually responsible for the mess? Nobody knows. Where are the updates that should have put them clear of the midfield? All talk, no results.

Edit: was just checking a tweet of a McLaren aerodynamicist. He said that the problems aren't easy to solve.

[media]https://twitter.com/ivanlda/status/1005929033002115072[/media]

techman
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Well, I posted a article some time ago on Marca where they talked about a correlation problem, which they said was the reason why all the updates were delayed by months. Doesn't sound so strange after all. I really don't understand why people are still acting like they are doing ok this year. They switched to Renault to be clear 4th, they are now fighting with Toro Rosso, Haas and Force India. There seems to be no leadership at all, because who's actually responsible for the mess? Nobody knows. Where are the updates that should have put them clear of the midfield? All talk, no results.
i agree, its a shame they are all talk no results. watching the documentary i saw there is no one in control. another reason they belived in their own hype and they had a scapegoat they can alwasy point finger at. so they didnt keep the development to their aero and chassis thinking they already had a very good chassis.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:34 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:03 pm
You need to understand basic physics. Alonso may be a great driver, but he cannot make a car go after than it is capable of going. Therefore the true pace of the car is the pace that Alonso gets out of it.
Yeah drivers are irrelevant, it doesn´t matter if he´s Alonso or Stroll :lol: :lol:

Now seriously, I know what you mean and agree, but when you read something like this it looks like if drivers can´t make any difference.

No driver can outperform his car, true, but we should also note no driver can get 100% of his car potential, none, not even the greatest ever, no matter who´s he. That would imply perfect qualy laps for the whole race, and even the greatest drivers struggle to make a single perfect lap in qualy, so in race trim that´s simply impossible for the whole race.

So a top driver getting 95% of his car potential (percentages invented), when the average F1 driver gets 93% of his car potential can actually beat faster cars and make it look a better car than it acually is :wink:
Agreed 100%

Basically what I was trying to say. They cannot drive the car faster than it can actually be driven.
Since I've ordered an electric car, does that mean I should start watching Formula E?

towncaptain
towncaptain
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Image
It has been mentioned before, I believe the intake above the helmet is one of the problem. Look how tiny it is compared to other teams. They might have done it for aerodynamic reasons but the engine won't breathe as good as it should.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:30 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 am
PhillipM wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:37 pm
Nothing, but then they might be able to solve their tyre/suspension issues without noticable new parts, larger/more sensitive pistons in the dampers, etc.
And they don't have to worry about not being able to switch the hypersofts on properly for qualifying either.

I only hear bits and pieces so I can't comment on anything bar there's some new BB parts.
The Hopefulls are blaming the suspension for their own comfort. I say Suspension problems are just too easy to solve mathematically for these big teams. You know what is hard to solve mathematically though? Yup. You guessed it. Shoddy aerodynamic correlation!
Hell, blaming it on suspensions is so easy when a Niagara falls of dodgy data chokes the database and things are too advanced to start over. McLaren know they messed up royally. The car was supposed to be within half a second of RedBull remember? Yes we are told (ask stoffel ;-) ) the aero balance is great and all. That means something's working right. But no Mclaren boss is talking about the piss poor downforce to drag ratio. Someone screwed up. Tim Goss took the fall. But he aint the head of aero. Peter Prodromu is. But guess what. Pete is zak's star signing.. Can't fire that guy without losing credibility.
Who stole PlatinumZealot's handle and who is this impostor?


Wrong again PZ! Pete was signed by none other than Ron Dennis! Zak didn't start till 21 November 2016.


I like the rest though ...

Did Tim get the screws cause he miffed the Suspension or was it the 2 months late on delivery. This is Mclaren, they like delivery not Delissio...That would be McCain's.
I like Ron, but I don't like Zak. So Zak it is!

In my days as a McLaren fan, when they alternated the technical leads each year, I always had an air of caution about the Tim Goss cars. They were usually conservative, solid, not fast, but granted they were always develop-able into decent cars. Their suspension platforms were stiff as the McLaren norm by then, but they worked well with whatever aero the cars had. And I am lead to believe this is Goss' specialty area too - mechanical design. Now - what do a say about Prodromu? I like his cleans designs. But he has had Four years to impress me and... he hasn't. Renault have no star aerodynamicst on their 2018 car and they're handing Mclaren their butts in high speed and low speed.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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Mattchu
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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I honestly find all this blame game a tad disrespectful! Sure McLaren were once a great team who built some of the best cars on the grid but that was quite a few years back.
The team hasn`t been getting anywhere near the funding levels that are required to battle it out with the big 3, the best staff in F1 are at the best teams and seem to invariably move around them. They still have some "issues"! So do Renault, FI, Haas, Sauber and Williams [even bigger].

Did anyone really think that because McLaren built some great cars years ago they would suddenly change engine and be right up there? They are slowly improving, they probably know what areas need the most work [rear suspension, aero refinement, etc] but the lead time on these parts is very long unless you have huge resources of which McLaren dont.

The waffle the senior public faces come out with is mostly just that .... waffle! Sponsors, fans, F1 want to hear these things because it helps keep the brand in the public [both Mc and F1].

Also on the subject of drivers i think a lot underestimate the technical help a driver can give to the team. Some of the very best drivers used to immerse themselves in the technicalities of the car to help make it better. Preobably not as much as they used to but I`m sure its still an important factor...

McMika98
McMika98
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:36 pm

Now - what do a say about Prodromu? I like his cleans designs. But he has had Four years to impress me and... he hasn't. Renault have no star aerodynamicst on their 2018 car and they're handing Mclaren their butts in high speed and low speed.
Amen on PP. Have been on his case since day 1 when everyone proclaimed the second coming of Newey. As i see it, he is a one trick pony. We have seen very little inreally aero in the last 4 years that really stood out and worse he didnt compromise while the likes of Newey reacted with a newer philosophy.

Also its clear that the aero philosophy since the last 4 years has now plateaued with very little returns, no wonder they are trying newer ideas which will take time.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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Benii6 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:54 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:26 pm
I do not know enough about the design stuff to have an opinion if truth be told, but my gut feeling is that they have a correlation problem between design/simulation and reality.
They also have an attitude problem. We are entitled to see Mclaren as the almighty team they were, but are realising now they have slipped to just a good midfield team.
They seem not to accept this and are still not stepping back and getting the fundamentals right before inventing and fitting superduper stuff noone else has.
Because a good attitude makes the car go faster. What?
In your opinion they should accept they're a midfield team and then they'll have a chance to be good. WHAT??
What a bunch of crap. Technical forum my ass.
So you think its working fine the way things are? There is an old saying about walking before they can run and at the moment they are hobbling. Its called reality. As for your ass, take your head out of it and look around.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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techman wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:09 pm
Well, I posted a article some time ago on Marca where they talked about a correlation problem, which they said was the reason why all the updates were delayed by months. Doesn't sound so strange after all. I really don't understand why people are still acting like they are doing ok this year. They switched to Renault to be clear 4th, they are now fighting with Toro Rosso, Haas and Force India. There seems to be no leadership at all, because who's actually responsible for the mess? Nobody knows. Where are the updates that should have put them clear of the midfield? All talk, no results.
i agree, its a shame they are all talk no results. watching the documentary i saw there is no one in control. another reason they belived in their own hype and they had a scapegoat they can alwasy point finger at. so they didnt keep the development to their aero and chassis thinking they already had a very good chassis.
You can all make up whatever you want but they did say that the upgrades did correlate and they got the update they expected.