Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
trinidefender
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:30 pm
LaplacesDemon wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:13 pm
For the same power higher voltage means lower current. Resistance losses increase with the square of current so increasing the voltage leads to higher ERS efficiency.
not so

consider using a lower voltage for the same power as the original
eg halving the voltage means doubling the original current
this will require a quarter of the original armature resistance
so the resistance losses in the armature will be unchanged
Wouldn't one of the benefits of higher voltage be thinner and lighter wiring around the car for the same resistance or lower resistance with the same wiring? this may lead to a smaller and lighter PU. Maybe the main advantage is packaging.

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Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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trinidefender wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:43 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:30 pm
LaplacesDemon wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:13 pm
For the same power higher voltage means lower current. Resistance losses increase with the square of current so increasing the voltage leads to higher ERS efficiency.
not so

consider using a lower voltage for the same power as the original
eg halving the voltage means doubling the original current
this will require a quarter of the original armature resistance
so the resistance losses in the armature will be unchanged
Wouldn't one of the benefits of higher voltage be thinner and lighter wiring around the car for the same resistance or lower resistance with the same wiring? this may lead to a smaller and lighter PU. Maybe the main advantage is packaging.
I think it's heat loss from resistance, and possibly some switching issues get better higher voltages.

mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:30 pm
not so
Yes so. Decreasing losses is the only reason for using high voltages on power lines.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:45 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:30 pm
not so
Yes so. Decreasing losses is the only reason for using high voltages on power lines.
not so
unless the F1 car weight limit has been waived
otherwise it doesn't matter that the cabling weighs more (to have the same losses as with a higher voltage system)

I think the argument towards higher voltage lies elsewhere (there's a lot of elsewheres)

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:45 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:30 pm
not so
Yes so. Decreasing losses is the only reason for using high voltages on power lines.
not so
unless the F1 car weight limit has been waived
otherwise it doesn't matter that the cabling weighs more (to have the same losses as with a higher voltage system)

I think the argument towards higher voltage lies elsewhere (there's a lot of elsewheres)
I believe you are wrong.
IMO higher the voltage, higher the efficiency of the whole system. Drawback is that higher voltage requires better insulation, but still it's worth it.
We are talking about hundreds of amps.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am
... I think the argument towards higher voltage lies elsewhere (there's a lot of elsewheres)
I believe you are wrong.
IMO higher the voltage, higher the efficiency of the whole system....
I have only said that machine conductor or cable resistance won't be the reason for Ferrari's higher voltage
and nobody has suggested anything else machine-related

the rpm and current combination of the H is at the limit of transistor capabilities (in what the FIA calls the CU)
(ie 250000 rpm 'motors' are possible but only at far lower powers than the H)
maybe for the H machine a higher voltage/lower current helps here ?
or maybe it's related to developments on the battery side ?

ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:45 am

Yes so. Decreasing losses is the only reason for using high voltages on power lines.
not so
unless the F1 car weight limit has been waived
otherwise it doesn't matter that the cabling weighs more (to have the same losses as with a higher voltage system)

I think the argument towards higher voltage lies elsewhere (there's a lot of elsewheres)
I believe you are wrong.
IMO higher the voltage, higher the efficiency of the whole system. Drawback is that higher voltage requires better insulation, but still it's worth it.
We are talking about hundreds of amps.
A bit of a noob question here, but at what point do you decide that going higher isn't worth it, for eg. going for 1000v or even 1200v

sosic2121
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:06 pm
A bit of a noob question here, but at what point do you decide that going higher isn't worth it, for eg. going for 1000v or even 1200v
[/quote]
I guess you would first have to decide what percentage of power lost in cables is acceptable. Less you loose in cables, more you can send to K and H.
But I believe in F1 scenario, higher is always better.

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codetower
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:45 am

Yes so. Decreasing losses is the only reason for using high voltages on power lines.
not so
unless the F1 car weight limit has been waived
otherwise it doesn't matter that the cabling weighs more (to have the same losses as with a higher voltage system)

I think the argument towards higher voltage lies elsewhere (there's a lot of elsewheres)
I believe you are wrong.
IMO higher the voltage, higher the efficiency of the whole system. Drawback is that higher voltage requires better insulation, but still it's worth it.
We are talking about hundreds of amps.
Do we know what the change in Amperes are? I'm no electro-magician, but the way I understand it is an increase in volts doesn't mean an increase in Amps (its the opposite actually). Amps are the amount of electricity through the circuit, Volts are the measure of the force, or the “volume”. The resistance in the circuit will determine how many amps are being pushed. The wattage (the actual workload) will be Amps x Volts. The way I understand it, increasing the voltage like they are doing will allow them to reduce the current, making the system more efficient. This could allow them to run the power for longer stretches, recharging time is reduced, therefore giving them more power.

Again, I may be way off here. This is all just my theory based on the limited knowledge of electronics I have (one of my college electives I took just for fun).

mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am
not so
Well, you didn't discredit Ohm's law, which you (unintentionally?) did before.
And you didn't quite respond to the previous line of comments
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:40 am
unless the F1 car weight limit has been waived
otherwise it doesn't matter that the cabling weighs more (to have the same losses as with a higher voltage system)
I'm quite sure they can't use huge heavy coils with spaghetti thickness copper wires efficiently. Especially at 120k rpm.
Weight limit, or not.
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:52 pm
I have only said that machine conductor or cable resistance won't be the reason for Ferrari's higher voltage
and nobody has suggested anything else machine-related

the rpm and current combination of the H is at the limit of transistor capabilities (in what the FIA calls the CU)
(ie 250000 rpm 'motors' are possible but only at far lower powers than the H)
maybe for the H machine a higher voltage/lower current helps here ?
or maybe it's related to developments on the battery side ?
Even if any/all of this is true, why wouldn't the resistance also be a reason?

DoctorRadio
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Weren’t the advantages of higher voltage in Daimler’s article posted above?
https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite ... d=44056073

“ Another area where you can see similar developments in the road car world and Formula One is the introduction of high-voltage systems. Why? In an electrical system, energy loss manifests itself as heat which is not a welcome effect in a car. The losses can be reduced by reducing the current. In order to reduce the current while keeping the power the same, you need to increase the voltage. In F1, we’re now close to 1,000 volts with the ERS battery. Modern electric road cars usually operate systems of up to 400 volts; however, the voltage will increase in the future and be closer to the voltage used in Formula One today”

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.youris.com/mobility/traffic ... ctric-cars
(people might need to search for this by title)

it seems to say that higher voltages are to ....
reduce amounts of copper needed on (road) cars and ... reduce their battery charging time so to allow increased range
and we could think that future Ferrari road cars are expected to be competitive with future Mercedes road cars

it does not seem to say that onboard efficiency increases with higher voltages


https://chargedevs.com/features/a-close ... onductors/
https://chargedevs.com/features/a-close ... ev-motors/
don't seem to offer a quick answer to that question

typically physical or electronic 'commutation' might have a fixed voltage loss ie favour higher voltage/lower current
but the 125000 rpm c.100kW H machine isn't the typical

mzso
mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:10 am
it seems to say that higher voltages are to ....
reduce amounts of copper needed on (road) cars and ... reduce their battery charging time so to allow increased range
and we could think that future Ferrari road cars are expected to be competitive with future Mercedes road cars

it does not seem to say that onboard efficiency increases with higher voltages
It's the same thing actually. You increase the voltage, the current can be reduced. So you either have better efficiency, or you use thinner wires and save weight, depending on what's important. Which of course applies to all conductors, including the coils in a motor.

Now how power electronics function with the different voltages isn't. I think only an expert with knowledge of the cutting edge power electronics could answer that reliably.

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Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:47 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:10 am
it seems to say that higher voltages are to ....
reduce amounts of copper needed on (road) cars and ... reduce their battery charging time so to allow increased range
and we could think that future Ferrari road cars are expected to be competitive with future Mercedes road cars

it does not seem to say that onboard efficiency increases with higher voltages
It's the same thing actually. You increase the voltage, the current can be reduced. So you either have better efficiency, or you use thinner wires and save weight, depending on what's important. Which of course applies to all conductors, including the coils in a motor.

Now how power electronics function with the different voltages isn't. I think only an expert with knowledge of the cutting edge power electronics could answer that reliably.
I would assume that the inverter and switch mechanisms have some sort of influence on this as well...

mzso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:00 pm
I would assume that the inverter and switch mechanisms have some sort of influence on this as well...
Well, the inverter would be the main part of the power electronics. Not sure what you mean about the vague "switch mechanisms"