Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
dialtone
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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glenntws wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:54 am
etusch wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:43 am
is mgu-k smells when failure? I think Carbon fiber body part or some fluid burnt.
The audio sounded to me like the MGU-K failed shortly before max turned off the engine.

Gasly also had the fluid leak at the MGU-K when it failed (maybe overheating is the problem?) which then started burning.

Pretty sure it's the same problem. Was Max still on a old MGU-K and did Perez get a new one? Or did they just not want to give hints on the radio... Maybe the new K for Max will have the problem resolved, I think he was still on the first one.

EDIT: Read somewhere that Gaslys failure was Battery related... Could also apply to Max, hence the immediately stopping MGU-K.
Horner just told Sky that it could maybe still be a fuel issue. Engine was on fire though... not sure what to believe.

mzso
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glenntws wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:06 am
MGU-K failure again, 100% sure. Ffs.
Was the Gasly thing an MGU-K failure? The last claim I head was that it was a battery failure.

But if Verstappen smelt something strange before it caught fire, it should be cooling oil from the MGU.

Spoutnik
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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glenntws
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Spoutnik wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 8:46 am
Well, my assumption was wrong and on the one side I'm happy the Honda PU did it's job, but (OT): C'mon man, it can't be that hard to get the fuel system right. Get your stuff together RB.

apriandy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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glenntws wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:22 am
Well, my assumption was wrong and on the one side I'm happy the Honda PU did it's job, but (OT): C'mon man, it can't be that hard to get the fuel system right. Get your stuff together RB.
Otherwise, I believe the PU is not in a good shape since the preseason test in Barcelona, with fuel pump issues and MGUK-shaft failure. Now, Redbull and AlphaTauri have to deal with fuel and MGU-K issues in every race weekend(?). Redbull and AlphaTauri always defending the PU, I don't know why.
lio007 wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:10 pm
lio007 wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:34 am
Are there any serious concerns about the fuel pump issue and MGUK-shaft failure they had in Barcelona?
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... lona-2022/
On the second day of testing, the problems first affected the gearbox and later the power unit. Parts like the fuel pump had shaken loose and maltreated the power unit. The shaft for the MGU-K broke.
I am afraid that Honda didn't put enough effort to overcome the new regulation. I'm afraid Honda just gave the RA621H+E10 modification, that's it, full stop. Hopefully, Honda would consider to "be back", and collaborate even further behind the scene. Because the situation right now is really heartbreaking.
Last edited by apriandy on Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Alexf1
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What's going on with the fuel RB is using? Is it caustic? It's causing vapor lock and eats fuel lines. Very odd.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:45 pm
What's going on with the fuel RB is using? Is it caustic? It's causing vapor lock and eats fuel lines. Very odd.
All ethanol blends do this.

They should have material spec'd for the change, however.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:45 pm
What's going on with the fuel RB is using? Is it caustic? It's causing vapor lock and eats fuel lines. Very odd.
All ethanol blends do this.

They should have material spec'd for the change, however.
I wonder if they are not using the fuel for something other than squirting into the cylinder and lighting?
For instance, some rocket engines flow the fuel through the nozzle for cooling before burning it
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

dialtone
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:56 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:45 pm
What's going on with the fuel RB is using? Is it caustic? It's causing vapor lock and eats fuel lines. Very odd.
All ethanol blends do this.

They should have material spec'd for the change, however.
I wonder if they are not using the fuel for something other than squirting into the cylinder and lighting?
For instance, some rocket engines flow the fuel through the nozzle for cooling before burning it
That would not be legal since it changes temperature of fuel, it would also increase the temperature of fuel making combustion less efficient.

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Zynerji
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dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:04 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:56 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm


All ethanol blends do this.

They should have material spec'd for the change, however.
I wonder if they are not using the fuel for something other than squirting into the cylinder and lighting?
For instance, some rocket engines flow the fuel through the nozzle for cooling before burning it
That would not be legal since it changes temperature of fuel, it would also increase the temperature of fuel making combustion less efficient.
There was a HAAS telemetry screen pic from a few years ago that showed a hot fuel rail and an ambient fuel rail, and it seemed to be mixed at the injector to reach a specific temperature for atomization.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:04 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:56 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm


All ethanol blends do this.

They should have material spec'd for the change, however.
I wonder if they are not using the fuel for something other than squirting into the cylinder and lighting?
For instance, some rocket engines flow the fuel through the nozzle for cooling before burning it
That would not be legal since it changes temperature of fuel, it would also increase the temperature of fuel making combustion less efficient.
Is it not 'cooling' of the fuel that is not allowed?
Amount is measured by weight, so that should not matter. Yes it would be less efficient, I think. But what would be the trade off?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

dialtone
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:12 pm
dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:04 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:56 pm


I wonder if they are not using the fuel for something other than squirting into the cylinder and lighting?
For instance, some rocket engines flow the fuel through the nozzle for cooling before burning it
That would not be legal since it changes temperature of fuel, it would also increase the temperature of fuel making combustion less efficient.
Is it not 'cooling' of the fuel that is not allowed?
Amount is measured by weight, so that should not matter. Yes it would be less efficient, I think. But what would be the trade off?
Yeah, cooling isn't allowed specifically, but it's not too hard to invert the behavior of a heat pump, so I would think the FIA would tell a team to steer clear of any of that.

AR3-GP
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:23 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:12 pm
dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:04 pm


That would not be legal since it changes temperature of fuel, it would also increase the temperature of fuel making combustion less efficient.
Is it not 'cooling' of the fuel that is not allowed?
Amount is measured by weight, so that should not matter. Yes it would be less efficient, I think. But what would be the trade off?
Yeah, cooling isn't allowed specifically, but it's not too hard to invert the behavior of a heat pump, so I would think the FIA would tell a team to steer clear of any of that.

6.4.2
No fuel intended for immediate use in a car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below
ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the ambient temperature will be that
recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider one hour before any practice session
or two hours before the race. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.
The temperature of fuel intended for use in a car must be measured via an FIA approved and
sealed sensor.

6.4.3 The use of any device on board the car to decrease the temperature of the fuel is forbidden

mrluke
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:23 am
dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:23 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:12 pm


Is it not 'cooling' of the fuel that is not allowed?
Amount is measured by weight, so that should not matter. Yes it would be less efficient, I think. But what would be the trade off?
Yeah, cooling isn't allowed specifically, but it's not too hard to invert the behavior of a heat pump, so I would think the FIA would tell a team to steer clear of any of that.

6.4.2
No fuel intended for immediate use in a car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below
ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the ambient temperature will be that
recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider one hour before any practice session
or two hours before the race. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.
The temperature of fuel intended for use in a car must be measured via an FIA approved and
sealed sensor.

6.4.3 The use of any device on board the car to decrease the temperature of the fuel is forbidden
How does that work? If the fuel can't be above ambient plus 10 but you aren't allowed to cool it, how do you comply? I cant see that its impossible for the fuel to warm up from the engine heat, especially at hotter races. Is this to do with definition of "device" perhaps?

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mrluke wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:02 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:23 am
dialtone wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 11:23 pm


Yeah, cooling isn't allowed specifically, but it's not too hard to invert the behavior of a heat pump, so I would think the FIA would tell a team to steer clear of any of that.

6.4.2
No fuel intended for immediate use in a car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below
ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the ambient temperature will be that
recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider one hour before any practice session
or two hours before the race. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.
The temperature of fuel intended for use in a car must be measured via an FIA approved and
sealed sensor.

6.4.3 The use of any device on board the car to decrease the temperature of the fuel is forbidden
How does that work? If the fuel can't be above ambient plus 10 but you aren't allowed to cool it, how do you comply? I cant see that its impossible for the fuel to warm up from the engine heat, especially at hotter races. Is this to do with definition of "device" perhaps?
There is nothing about being above ambient. Only below.