Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:24 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:25 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:32 am
Saying that it will be necessary to burn fuel (to harvest) in 2026 can only be interpreted to mean the rules as are (at least up to now) allows such fuel burning by someone's caliber that visits other technical forums and is reminded that the turbo maximum rpm rules are 150k rpm and not as stated by him 15k rpm.
Well, the turbo speed is not actually limited, and the MGUH is restricted to 125,000 rpm.
Speculations? Yes all being said as to the projected for 2026 PU is speculation and or personal opinion that are not consonant with the projected rules as are up to this day, and that includes deployment/harvesting plus harvesting by burning fuel. And as at present, the turbo speed is actually limited to that of the MGU-H at 125k RPM and not 15k RPM as corrected on the other technical forum were the wisdom was also pushed out.
The current rules allow for a gearbox (fixed ratio) between the turbo and MGUH, so the turbo speed is not, in fact, limited by the MGUH speed.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:50 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:24 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2023 2:25 pm


Well, the turbo speed is not actually limited, and the MGUH is restricted to 125,000 rpm.
Speculations? Yes all being said as to the projected for 2026 PU is speculation and or personal opinion that are not consonant with the projected rules as are up to this day, and that includes deployment/harvesting plus harvesting by burning fuel. And as at present, the turbo speed is actually limited to that of the MGU-H at 125k RPM and not 15k RPM as corrected on the other technical forum were the wisdom was also pushed out.
The current rules allow for a gearbox (fixed ratio) between the turbo and MGUH, so the turbo speed is not, in fact, limited by the MGUH speed.
Re-"H"+ gearbox, you are mixing "H' with ''K". "H" might be clutched but no gearbox, so ''H'' and turbo same rotational speed.

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lio007
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It's the first time I have seen an interview with someone from RBPT:
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... owertrains

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organic
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Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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lio007 wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:07 am
It's the first time I have seen an interview with someone from RBPT:
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... owertrains
Was just about to post it

Excerpt
"In the cover letter, when they made us sign the contract, Christian Horner's words were reported: 'We don't back down from challenges, but we push ourselves beyond limits and do things differently, always trying to be the best and fastest on the track' . With this motivational phrase we are trying to make the best power unit for 2026: the fastest and most efficient of all. To do this, the best engineers from all over the world were hired. Many important figures have arrived from Mercedes, for example. The plan is clear and well defined from day one. We have the right people to get it done . "

jure
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Interesting, I wonder whether they are allowed to reuse / adapt (and possibly upgrade) Honda's combustion concept, ICE architecture and materials used. If Honda is also entering in 2026 as engine provider this would certainly be a bit controversial, since Honda invested a lot of money in current engines and in 2026 RBPT is going to reuse this for free? Or maybe RBPT is going to pay Honda something?

Edit: I saw the post in the post in Honda engine thread - the RBPT engine is a completely new engine, without Honda's knowledge. Still, RB probably has a lot of knowledge about Honda engine internals, architecture, materials and just raw numbers that the engine produces.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jure wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:56 am
Interesting, I wonder whether they are allowed to reuse / adapt (and possibly upgrade) Honda's combustion concept, ICE architecture and materials used. If Honda is also entering in 2026 as engine provider this would certainly be a bit controversial, since Honda invested a lot of money in current engines and in 2026 RBPT is going to reuse this for free? Or maybe RBPT is going to pay Honda something?

Edit: I saw the post in the post in Honda engine thread - the RBPT engine is a completely new engine, without Honda's knowledge. Still, RB probably has a lot of knowledge about Honda engine internals, architecture, materials and just raw numbers that the engine produces.
Re combustion and such things, Now not even possible through the use of fuel suppliers. ''motorsports com - Jonathan Noble updated 28 Oct''.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2023 5:35 am
wuzak wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:50 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2023 5:24 am


Speculations? Yes all being said as to the projected for 2026 PU is speculation and or personal opinion that are not consonant with the projected rules as are up to this day, and that includes deployment/harvesting plus harvesting by burning fuel. And as at present, the turbo speed is actually limited to that of the MGU-H at 125k RPM and not 15k RPM as corrected on the other technical forum were the wisdom was also pushed out.
The current rules allow for a gearbox (fixed ratio) between the turbo and MGUH, so the turbo speed is not, in fact, limited by the MGUH speed.
Re-"H"+ gearbox, you are mixing "H' with ''K". "H" might be clutched but no gearbox, so ''H'' and turbo same rotational speed.
5.3.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This
mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine.

The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
The mass of the MGU-H (as defined in line 14 of Appendix 3 to these regulations) may not be
less than 4kg.
Fixed speed ratio means that variable speed devices are not allowed, eg. a fluid coupling, but the MGUH can be geared to the turbo.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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While the MGU-K can spin up to 50k R.P.M and as it deploys/harvests through the crankshaft which can spin up to 15k R.P.M it means there is a gearbox between it and the crankshaft, Also the MGU-K can also be clutched. The MGU-H can spin up to 125k R.P.M and as it deploys/harvest trough the turbine and turbine can also spin up to 125k R.P.M it means no gearbox is in-between the two, but MGU-H can also be clutched.

gruntguru
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:49 pm
While the MGU-K can spin up to 50k R.P.M and as it deploys/harvests through the crankshaft which can spin up to 15k R.P.M it means there is a gearbox between it and the crankshaft, Also the MGU-K can also be clutched. The MGU-H can spin up to 125k R.P.M and as it deploys/harvest trough the turbine and turbine can also spin up to 125k R.P.M it means no gearbox is in-between the two, but MGU-H can also be clutched.
All of the teams run the MGUH at the same speed as the turbine however they don't have to, the rules allow a gearbox - fixed ratio, no clutch.
"This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine."
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes. All the manufacturers run the MGU-H at the same speed of the turbine even if they don't have to, and also even they don't have to, they may clutch-it.

wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:15 am
Yes. All the manufacturers run the MGU-H at the same speed of the turbine even if they don't have to, and also even they don't have to, they may clutch-it.
That appears to no longer be the case:

2014 Regs:
5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
2017:
5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
The weight of the MGU-H (as defined in line 13 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) may not be less than 4kg.
2019:
5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
The weight of the MGU-H (as defined in line 13 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) may not be less than 4kg.
2021:
5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
The weight of the MGU-H (as defined in line 14 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) may not be less than 4kg.
2022:
5.3.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine.
The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.
The mass of the MGU-H (as defined in line 14 of Appendix 3 to these regulations) may not be less than 4kg.
So no allowance for a clutch since 2022.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:31 am
wuzak wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 9:56 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:15 am
Yes. All the manufacturers run the MGU-H at the same speed of the turbine even if they don't have to, and also even they don't have to, they may clutch-it.
That appears to no longer be the case:......
So no allowance for a clutch since 2022.
clutching would have allowed the H to be a greater unaccounted store of energy (than fixed drive)
4

So now that the speed of 'H' and the turbo claims are behind us, now questions that remains if the 'H' being clutched or not. In my opinion the rules from the very start of the hybrid formula allowed for it to be clutched. In the very old days there was a lot of discussion about the 'H' clutching system, of which you were a part of, at that time some were wrongly claiming 2 clutches on the Mercedes 'split' turbo system, because of their 'H' was sitting in-between turbine and compressor, something that the rules does not allow as that claimed system would have had the effect of separate shafts for turbine and compressor, but back then 'HENRY' told you lot that the Mercedes 'H' had a hollow shaft inside which passes the compressor/turbine shaft.

wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:56 am
So now that the speed of 'H' and the turbo claims are behind us, now questions that remains if the 'H' being clutched or not.
As shown above, the rules have stated "and may be clutched" from the beginning of the turbo hybrid era to 2021, but the words have been omitted from the 2022 rules.

That suggests that none of them were used a clutch system between the MGUH and turbo.

saviour stivala
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 12:13 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:56 am
So now that the speed of 'H' and the turbo claims are behind us, now questions that remains if the 'H' being clutched or not.
As shown above, the rules have stated "and may be clutched" from the beginning of the turbo hybrid era to 2021, but the words have been omitted from the 2022 rules.

That suggests that none of them were used a clutch system between the MGUH and turbo.
I need correct/clarify ''now question that remains if the 'H' being clutched or not'' should instead have read ''now question that remains is if the 'H' was ever permitted to be clutched and is it still permitted to be clutched''. ''the rules have stated (and may be clutched) from beginning of the turbo hybrid era to 2021" which means a clutch was permitted, so that's also behind us now. And now how can anybody prove that no clutch was ever used between turbo and 'H' by any of the manufacturers up to 2021?. And because from 2022 the warding has been omitted, how can it be interpreted that a clutch cannot be used?.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Red Bull Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 6:42 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 12:13 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:56 am
So now that the speed of 'H' and the turbo claims are behind us, now questions that remains if the 'H' being clutched or not.
As shown above, the rules have stated "and may be clutched" from the beginning of the turbo hybrid era to 2021, but the words have been omitted from the 2022 rules.

That suggests that none of them were used a clutch system between the MGUH and turbo.
I need correct/clarify ''now question that remains if the 'H' being clutched or not'' should instead have read ''now question that remains is if the 'H' was ever permitted to be clutched and is it still permitted to be clutched''. ''the rules have stated (and may be clutched) from beginning of the turbo hybrid era to 2021" which means a clutch was permitted, so that's also behind us now. And now how can anybody prove that no clutch was ever used between turbo and 'H' by any of the manufacturers up to 2021?. And because from 2022 the warding has been omitted, how can it be interpreted that a clutch cannot be used?.

"May be clutched" is specific permission for the use of a clutch.

If the words are omitted, as in the 2022 regulations, a clutch is not allowed, since the rules do state that the "mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine".

The fact that the phrase was omitted for the 2022 season does imply that the manufacturers were not using a clutch in the system when the 2022 rules were being written (that is, 2021).

Some or all of them may have used the clutch in the past.