2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 am
Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
it’s been acknowledged by the RB camp. That’s why Honda is doing some work this winter.

I also feel we are seeing limitations. Merc and Ferrari have a higher peak. Honda might be more reliable and consistent with and less sensitivity to temperature however.

That drag race to the line vs Leclerc was sad. In full tow with a good battery, told to press and hold, and Leclerc is still pulling away. Lol.
Last edited by AR3-GP on Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mwillems
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:55 am
Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 am
Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
it’s been acknowledged by the RB camp. That’s why Honda is doing some work this winter.

I also feel we are seeing limitations. Merc and Ferrari have a higher peak. Honda might be more reliable and consistent however and less sensitive to temperature however. Ferrari and Merc definetly benefitted more from the cooler conditions because they simply have more that they can take advantage of in cooler conditions.

That drag race to the line vs Leclerc was sad. In full tow with a good battery, told to press and hold, and Leclerc is still pulling away. Lol.
If you look at Lando Norris doing the season with 3 Merc engines you'd have to say there's some reliability there too..
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Dont forget Ferrari brought their monza specific wing here, so their car was going to be fast in a straight line. Mercedes im not sure.

Regardless - long as we have the car to be fastest over a lap by a good amount...thats all that matters.

Dubai will be telling I think for a season concluder on times gained.

Dont forget, the RB20 will be a good step up from the RB19 too.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 am
Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
Probably just tuned them down a bit, because they saw some potential problems at the end of their life.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Yeah guess thats another factor. Done the whole season without a penalty on the PU/components side. (i think.)

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organic
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:02 am
Yeah guess thats another factor. Done the whole season without a penalty on the PU/components side. (i think.)
Perez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back

I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.

BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether) :D

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Wouter
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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TNTHead
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Nice race, even with the drop back of VER he had enough pace to end up front.

Since Sainz at one point at the race was told to cool his engine, could it also be that FER turned their engine a bit up and went aggressive with the cooling? This could explain the smaller pace difference.

DoctorRadio
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 am
Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
It has also to be said that Red Bull had a higher downforce rear wing at Las Vegas than both Mercedes and Ferrari; Ferrari had Monza rear wing but coupled with a double components beam wing.
Looking at the speed traces in qualifying, Mercedes (Rus) had worse corner speeds than Ver and Lec, suggesting maybe the lowest downforce config; he had an advantage on the straights vs Ver and same time spent on the straights as Lec (taking Leclerc’s last Q2 run), with Lec gaining in acceleration until around 290 (Albano talked about Ferrari having early ERS release in acceleration for better lap time), then Mercedes coming a bit back after 300, suggesting a different ERS strategy for them (however at that point drag should be the most important factor).
In the race, especially with the tows making the difference along those big straights even at a few seconds of distance, I think it’s harder to compare.

Said that, all in all, I think it was reasonable to expect Max slower on the straights.

Also, even assuming Mercedes had an advantage on Honda here (again, didn’t see it on Ferrari in qualifying), we are at the end of the season, the manufacturers are doing all they can to avoid failures and it’s possible that Honda pushed more in the first two thirds of the season and now Mercedes is able to have a bit more juice than them.
It’s hard to see it black and white at this stage of the season, with old engines.
Looking forward to your reply, as your posts are often very insightful.

avantman
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 am
Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
Don't you think Juzh, Mercedes started to push engine harder lately trying desperately to win one race this year? At COTA, Interlagos and clearly in Vegas as well. Doesn't it look similar (to much lesser extent though) to the end of 2021 season? Do you think they have the same power as Mclaren and Aston now? Is it sustainable power they could maintain coming forward, not compromising engine mileage or reliability? They looked like they had big struggles in Mexico race, having to do a lot of lift and coast, a lot more than Honda, Ferrari and even more than Mclaren. Russell struggled with overheating and had to retire ultimately in Brazil. He was by his own words heavily compromised on fuel for half of the race at COTA.

avantman
avantman
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:59 am
Juzh wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 am
Win is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
Probably just tuned them down a bit, because they saw some potential problems at the end of their life.
I think Juzh refers to qualifying performance. It's very visible on telemetry overlays, both Merc and Ferrari have steeper acceleration curves. Mercedes also suddenly raised their top speed massively, which is a function of both drag and power.

Bill
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:06 am
chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:02 am
Yeah guess thats another factor. Done the whole season without a penalty on the PU/components side. (i think.)
Perez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back

I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.

BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether) :D
honda never went for all out power unless you have a measuring device please tell us how much power have honda lost or ferrari gained.ferrari is being helped by cool condition on a normal track they will be forced to open their car like in brazil and mexico.ferrari power is nothing new people seem to have short memories they showed that in baku last year too.ferrari has some engine failures in the hass in mexico brazil ,a ferrari powered car retired in vegas too not sure why.its all about balance reliability ,power ,cooling ,deployment, weight size .no manufacture wil beat a honda powered redbull in championship .max will be 5 times champ by 2025

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:12 pm
organic wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:06 am
chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:02 am
Yeah guess thats another factor. Done the whole season without a penalty on the PU/components side. (i think.)
Perez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back

I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.

BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether) :D
honda never went for all out power unless you have a measuring device please tell us how much power have honda lost or ferrari gained.ferrari is being helped by cool condition on a normal track they will be forced to open their car like in brazil and mexico.ferrari power is nothing new people seem to have short memories they showed that in baku last year too.ferrari has some engine failures in the hass in mexico brazil ,a ferrari powered car retired in vegas too not sure why.its all about balance reliability ,power ,cooling ,deployment, weight size .no manufacture wil beat a honda powered redbull in championship .max will be 5 times champ by 2025
RB will be hoping you are correct. :wink: :lol:

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foneFanatiq
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Re: 2023 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:12 pm
organic wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:06 am
chrisc90 wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:02 am
Yeah guess thats another factor. Done the whole season without a penalty on the PU/components side. (i think.)
Perez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back

I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.

BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether) :D
honda never went for all out power unless you have a measuring device please tell us how much power have honda lost or ferrari gained.ferrari is being helped by cool condition on a normal track they will be forced to open their car like in brazil and mexico.ferrari power is nothing new people seem to have short memories they showed that in baku last year too.ferrari has some engine failures in the hass in mexico brazil ,a ferrari powered car retired in vegas too not sure why.its all about balance reliability ,power ,cooling ,deployment, weight size .no manufacture wil beat a honda powered redbull in championship .max will be 5 times champ by 2025

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