it’s been acknowledged by the RB camp. That’s why Honda is doing some work this winter.Juzh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amWin is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
If you look at Lando Norris doing the season with 3 Merc engines you'd have to say there's some reliability there too..AR3-GP wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:55 amit’s been acknowledged by the RB camp. That’s why Honda is doing some work this winter.Juzh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amWin is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
I also feel we are seeing limitations. Merc and Ferrari have a higher peak. Honda might be more reliable and consistent however and less sensitive to temperature however. Ferrari and Merc definetly benefitted more from the cooler conditions because they simply have more that they can take advantage of in cooler conditions.
That drag race to the line vs Leclerc was sad. In full tow with a good battery, told to press and hold, and Leclerc is still pulling away. Lol.
Probably just tuned them down a bit, because they saw some potential problems at the end of their life.Juzh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amWin is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
Perez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back
It has also to be said that Red Bull had a higher downforce rear wing at Las Vegas than both Mercedes and Ferrari; Ferrari had Monza rear wing but coupled with a double components beam wing.Juzh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amWin is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
Don't you think Juzh, Mercedes started to push engine harder lately trying desperately to win one race this year? At COTA, Interlagos and clearly in Vegas as well. Doesn't it look similar (to much lesser extent though) to the end of 2021 season? Do you think they have the same power as Mclaren and Aston now? Is it sustainable power they could maintain coming forward, not compromising engine mileage or reliability? They looked like they had big struggles in Mexico race, having to do a lot of lift and coast, a lot more than Honda, Ferrari and even more than Mclaren. Russell struggled with overheating and had to retire ultimately in Brazil. He was by his own words heavily compromised on fuel for half of the race at COTA.Juzh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amWin is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
I think Juzh refers to qualifying performance. It's very visible on telemetry overlays, both Merc and Ferrari have steeper acceleration curves. Mercedes also suddenly raised their top speed massively, which is a function of both drag and power.NL_Fer wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:59 amProbably just tuned them down a bit, because they saw some potential problems at the end of their life.Juzh wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:51 amWin is a win, but at what point do we start discussing RBs continual decline in straight line speed? At this stage mercedes engine is clearly faster on full throttle, better even than ferrari, and honda is without a doubt down on power like 10-15 hp. I've seen it now too many times now to be a "coincidence". RB actually loses a lot of time on un-DRSed straights during the race since Qatar at least.
honda never went for all out power unless you have a measuring device please tell us how much power have honda lost or ferrari gained.ferrari is being helped by cool condition on a normal track they will be forced to open their car like in brazil and mexico.ferrari power is nothing new people seem to have short memories they showed that in baku last year too.ferrari has some engine failures in the hass in mexico brazil ,a ferrari powered car retired in vegas too not sure why.its all about balance reliability ,power ,cooling ,deployment, weight size .no manufacture wil beat a honda powered redbull in championship .max will be 5 times champ by 2025organic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:06 amPerez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back
I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.
BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether)
RB will be hoping you are correct.Bill wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:12 pmhonda never went for all out power unless you have a measuring device please tell us how much power have honda lost or ferrari gained.ferrari is being helped by cool condition on a normal track they will be forced to open their car like in brazil and mexico.ferrari power is nothing new people seem to have short memories they showed that in baku last year too.ferrari has some engine failures in the hass in mexico brazil ,a ferrari powered car retired in vegas too not sure why.its all about balance reliability ,power ,cooling ,deployment, weight size .no manufacture wil beat a honda powered redbull in championship .max will be 5 times champ by 2025organic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:06 amPerez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back
I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.
BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether)
Bill wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:12 pmhonda never went for all out power unless you have a measuring device please tell us how much power have honda lost or ferrari gained.ferrari is being helped by cool condition on a normal track they will be forced to open their car like in brazil and mexico.ferrari power is nothing new people seem to have short memories they showed that in baku last year too.ferrari has some engine failures in the hass in mexico brazil ,a ferrari powered car retired in vegas too not sure why.its all about balance reliability ,power ,cooling ,deployment, weight size .no manufacture wil beat a honda powered redbull in championship .max will be 5 times champ by 2025organic wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:06 amPerez took some extra components when he was already starting at the back
I think that there is clearly a deficit on the PU side. Honda worked hard between 2022 and 2023 on reliability - 5 ICEs were required for Max in 2022. It seems they've fallen slightly behind on the power but let's see what they can cook up in the off-season. Ferrari changed their ERS for the second half of the season (monza onwards) iirc which seemed to help them.
BTW if not for Singapore underperformance Max would be on a 17-race win streak (or 16 if you omit singapore altogether)