2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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makecry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am
I like how people are saying Fernando was being stupid. We are talking about one of the greatest racing minds of all time, if he went for it, he thought it through and decided it was worth the risk. It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work
Well that doesn't mean he can't miscalculate, it was still a mistake for sure. I'm just trying to give what I think is context perhaps influencing his choice. Theres a very fine line between genius and wrong, does no one go there because it's dumb or because no one thought of it? This time it was the dumb one.

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Jambier
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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makecry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am
I like how people are saying Fernando was being stupid. We are talking about one of the greatest racing minds of all time, if he went for it, he thought it through and decided it was worth the risk. It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work
Agreed
He tried, those are the last two races you have to try , no risk no rewards :)

OnEcRiTiCaL
OnEcRiTiCaL
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Jambier wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:49 am
makecry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am
I like how people are saying Fernando was being stupid. We are talking about one of the greatest racing minds of all time, if he went for it, he thought it through and decided it was worth the risk. It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work
Agreed
He tried, those are the last two races you have to try , no risk no rewards :)
They can't lose the current place in the team champion standing, so they actually can't loose anything this year,but can win against McLaren.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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KimiRai wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:54 am
Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:47 am
KimiRai wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:39 am


I understand your point, but I personally disagree on this one. We can draw a parallel with the first lap of Zandvoort for example. On both occasions he tried to make unconventional lines to gain an advantage over his rivals. The first one worked, and he knew about the grip on the inside from free practice. This time it didn't and he spun. We don't know (yet) if similarly he had tested it beforehand. If the Zandvoort manoeuvre had gone wrong, had he lost control of the car as a passenger and spun, the same would have been said.

I think he had to be aggressive after qualifying P10 (starting P9 after Sainz penalty) and having cars with higher top speed ahead of him like the Williams, as someone else pointed out earlier

i don't think we can draw a parallel with Zadvoort because Zabdvoort isn't a street circuit, isn't a night race, nor happening in such cold conditions. I don't know how we can draw a parallel with Zadvoort.
It's common sense that the inside of turn1 will be very very dirty and very very slippery, especially at the start of the race.
Drops had just begun to fall, it was windy, and the weather forecast was between 14ºC and 18ºC so not too different from Vegas. You are right that it wasn't a street circuit and we know how dirty they can be so I grant you that it was likely an ever bigger risk. But I think the thought process was similar from him in both starts. Now this is just my speculation but when he tries these things it's because he tested them before in practice, so if that happened it's possible the lack of grip surprised him, but we don't know that yet
Well maybe he thought of it, tested the grip (as you say) and visualized it in his brain, we can't possible know or be sure about it.
I insist though that the nature of this circuit should prohibit such visualizations for a driver with Alonso's experience :)
It's more likely, that he was eager (as you said) to get ahead of the Williams in order NOT TO get stuck behind it in the first stint and eagerness led him to misjudge a bit the t1 approach.
Watching the replays, it is clear that he really tried and wanted to make that corner. It wasn't a complete dive bomb he really tried to brake & make the turn but grip just wasn't there, entry speed and angle was too much for the car to handle and the rear just snapped. The way the car spanned it was like dancing in the ice. It was a very risky move nonetheless.

SchuMassa
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Kamel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:13 am
Mediocre performance from Alonso to be honest
Hard to disagree with you - rookie mistake in T1, and even though his pace was alright overall, he didn't look faster than Stroll at any point.

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Bisonas
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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It came to my attention now, that oil had been spilled on the inside line of t1, from a classic car carring around Hamilton on the parade lap. All the oil was spilled on the left hand side.
SAINZ was furious about it after the race, suggesting that oil and not just the dirty track played a role on t1 incidents.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:27 am
diffuser wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:22 am
Bisonas wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:54 pm


Yes, he didn’t took t1 in the best possible way, he did run a little bit wide compared to first lap,
and as I said, he is using different braking points and at some corners slightly different lines.
I am not sure if we can blame the breaking performance everywhere, or Alonso just changing his breaking points and his lines a bit, on purpose. He did say after the lap, that it was a good lap after all.

The real problem though starts with the breaking at turn 5 how he enters and how he exits that corner. After exiting t5 he is mostly losing time and that goes on through 7,8 and also exiting turn 9 and up to turn 12.

The break even point though, where his second run became even with the previous lap was at turn 12.
Up until then he was managing to be slightly faster, even with the breaking points he had and the lines he took.

In your telemetry graph, the point in time that you marked is when exiting turn 12. As you can see due to better traction probably, or slightly different line, he exits the corner with higher speed than the previous lap (135km/h to 131km/h). Logic say, that with better tires, better grip, better traction and higher speed at the exit of t12, you will reach a better top speed just before t14.

https://ibb.co/p2cVLcH

But he doesn’t !!! As you see in the telemetry graph above in which i have marked the end of the straight just before t14, he keeps loosing time in the straight and he ends up with a lower overall top speed (341km/h to 343km/h). It is there, where i think following a car around 4 seconds behind may be helpful in this circuit. Not only there actually, but in other straights as well.
Notice, in the bottom part of graph, the white graph line is slower in kph but is moving further up and away from the bottom green graph line? The green is going faster in speed at the end of the straight. The white line moving further above the green line means, on that run the white line was accelerating faster than the green. Alonso nailed the braking and the fresher tires allowed Alonso to get on the throttle earlier and apply more power down. Since they are the same car, once they both get on full throttle, they'll both accelerate at the same rate but since the white line was on the throttle earlier it keeps a speed advantage for most of the straight. The top speed difference is likely because on the white line he applied the powerer sooner and harder that he ran out of battery. The Xtra 2 kph had little effect on his lap time cause it lasts such a short time, literally a fraction of a second. Under breaking he loses time as he brakes harder and scrubs off speed faster on the white graph line than on the green line. Guess on the green run when he smoked the right tire he still hit the apex.
It's the opposite.
The white line moving further above the green line means Alonso is losing time (overall) in the straight compared to his green line lap. The white line didn't keep a speed advantage. It lost the speed advantage and lost time overall.
Yes Alonso with better tires, grip and traction had better exit and better speed at the begging of the straight, but he kept losing speed and ended up with a lower top speed having lost in the process almost a tenth (around 0.090) in that straight.

With better tires and better acceleration doesn't make sense for this to happen.

As i said IMO that happened either because he didn't had a car in front running 4 seconds ahead or they had adjusted something regarding balance/df in the pits, or (as you said) something else regarding battery, deployment etc.

But watching how other cars run out there, i believe running 4 seconds behind another car, overall is beneficial in this circuit.
Yep, you are right. He is losing time on all the straights.

ALO_Power
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Apart from the incidents, I think the overall team performance was quite decent really. With a better qualifying and start/turn 1, the team would had scored many more points I think. Positive. Let's see Abu Dhabi.
Also reminds me of Brazil sprint race that both Astons were stuck in traffic, seemed quick but were stuck in traffic but with a better starting position in Sunday, much better things happened.

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:45 pm
It came to my attention now, that oil had been spilled on the inside line of t1, from a classic car carring around Hamilton on the parade lap. All the oil was spilled on the left hand side.
SAINZ was furious about it after the race, suggesting that oil and not just the dirty track played a role on t1 incidents.
Well thats unlucky. It was surely cleaned but it is possible that there was not the same amount of grip afterwards.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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makecry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am
I like how people are saying Fernando was being stupid. We are talking about one of the greatest racing minds of all time, if he went for it, he thought it through and decided it was worth the risk. It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work
Podium was out of reach this time, but I agree with the rest. There´s no driver with better judgment on racing decisions than Alonso, but he´s not god, so he can make mistakes.
Bisonas wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:45 pm
It came to my attention now, that oil had been spilled on the inside line of t1, from a classic car carring around Hamilton on the parade lap. All the oil was spilled on the left hand side.
SAINZ was furious about it after the race, suggesting that oil and not just the dirty track played a role on t1 incidents.
This would explain why Verstappen, Leclerc, Alonso and Sainz misjudged T1 grip, too many top drivers misjudging T1 grip to just assume they all made a rookie mistake

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noshbloke
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Jambier wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:49 am
makecry wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:06 am
I like how people are saying Fernando was being stupid. We are talking about one of the greatest racing minds of all time, if he went for it, he thought it through and decided it was worth the risk. It’s a shame it didn’t work out, if it did, he’d have been on the podium, that’s how things work
Agreed
He tried, those are the last two races you have to try , no risk no rewards :)
totally agree

Big Gun
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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SchuMassa wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:30 pm
Kamel wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2023 9:13 am
Mediocre performance from Alonso to be honest
Hard to disagree with you - rookie mistake in T1, and even though his pace was alright overall, he didn't look faster than Stroll at any point.
Well he was stuck behind Sainz who had better top speed, nothing can do. Though i noticed both Astons struggled for tire wear the last few laps which is disappointing.

ALO_Power
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Let's see if Abu Dhabi will be good enough.

-wkst-
-wkst-
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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AMuS:

They will do some more aero-related experiments in the test after the race next week. Less drag is obviously the goal for 2024, but not at the price to sacrifice the strong parts of the car.

NAPI10
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Good to see Lance got his mojo back; whatever AM changed on the car is helping him.