2025 car comparison thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
vorticism
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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At Monaco, Mclaren are using 1 deep louver and 2 short shallow louvers (per side) and a cannon outlet that’s ~2x wider than their usual. Red Bull are using 1 deep louver and 4 tall shallow louvers (per side), a spine outlet, and a cannon outlet that’s ~2x wider their usual.

Image
Photos: Bryn Lennon

Rough comparison of cooling outlet area between the two:

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Stills: F1 media

My previous estimate now seems conservative. Here it looks like Mclaren have only 70-80% of the cooling outlet area that Red Bull do. Both use suspension portal outlets of similar size and were not included in the comparison. Not visible in most views, regardless.

FittingMechanics
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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The Race in their video made a comment about it, Stella apparently said that they are using less cooling because the cooling system is all new for this year (and improved), and that being able to use less cooling is part of the performance gained.

By having less cooling they can put more downforce which then helps with tires, etc.

This is especially beneficial in hot races. More cooling you need, the bigger the benefit for McLaren. Interesting point.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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vorticism wrote:
24 May 2025, 06:35
At Monaco, Mclaren are using 1 deep louver and 2 short shallow louvers (per side) and a cannon outlet that’s ~2x wider than their usual. Red Bull are using 1 deep louver and 4 tall shallow louvers (per side), a spine outlet, and a cannon outlet that’s ~2x wider their usual.

https://i.postimg.cc/BZkfxVcw/monacocooling.jpg
Photos: Bryn Lennon

Rough comparison of cooling outlet area between the two:

https://i.postimg.cc/k45PcrpL/cannoncompmonaco.jpg
Stills: F1 media

My previous estimate now seems conservative. Here it looks like Mclaren have only 70-80% of the cooling outlet area that Red Bull do. Both use suspension portal outlets of similar size and were not included in the comparison. Not visible in most views, regardless.
McLaren outlet is higher on top and triangular at the bottom, the comparison made here doesn't show that

Image
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vorticism
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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FittingMechanics wrote:
24 May 2025, 10:46
The Race in their video made a comment about it...
Which one? I’ve been waiting to see cooling analysis taken up by press and pundits. I think it's a major factor and MCL39's primary differentiation from the RB21. I posted this 10 days ago:

vorticism wrote:
14 May 2025, 19:33

...

The size of the cooling outlets indicates that Mclaren have the highest cooling outflow velocity. Greater velocity allows them to move the same air mass through smaller outlets. It is evindent in some photos that the MCL39 has the most developed internal ducting; that’s the secret there, which is to say, nothing really to do with the radiators themselves nor the power unit or the coolant, all of which are so regulated anyway that I can't expect them to be performance differentiators on their own.

Image

...

Given how well they’ve designed several parts of the car, it stands to reason that they also have very good if not the best brake duct performance--but the brake ducts are only one piece of the puzzle; perhaps their proximity to the tyres is leading to a false association.

More efficient front wing, least disruptive cooling outflow, maybe some wing-flex DRS... In short, the MCL39 probably has the best lift:drag ratio of all the cars. In practice, they could achieve similar downforce levels with less drag, or greater downforce levels without increasing drag, relative to their competitors’ cars. Reducing the drag force reduces the overall stresses endured by the tires, thus providing slightly cooler tires that last slightly longer, and by association offer a broader operating window i.e. the drivers can go more aggressive to get the quick heat-up which the drivers of other teams cannot risk i.e. the operating window has a higher peak transient temp tolerance because they always have a ‘normal’ or ‘preservation’ driving speed that heats the tires less, due to reduced drag forces put through the tires. Mclaren’s tire management may just be a result of the RB39 being the sum of its well-honed parts. Mclaren took the good practices of the RB18 series cars and polished them further.

...

FittingMechanics
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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vorticism wrote:
24 May 2025, 16:26
FittingMechanics wrote:
24 May 2025, 10:46
The Race in their video made a comment about it...
Which one? I’ve been waiting to see cooling analysis taken up by press and pundits. I think it's a major factor and MCL39's primary differentiation from the RB21. I posted this 10 days ago:


It's not a full analysis, but they mention that Stella explained to them about the cooling and how it is part of the reason McLaren has more pace.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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Is there any official wheelbase data from the top 4 teams?
It doesn't turn.

Emag
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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SilviuAgo wrote:
27 May 2025, 13:33
MCL39 vs SF-25, aero view in Monaco

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gr5KA3AWoAE ... =4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gr5KA2-W4AA ... =4096x4096

source: unknown
I tried to put them side by side with Photoshop :

Image
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vorticism
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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Referencing non Nokia 5110 resolution photos by Mark Sutton I’ll again revise my estimate of the MCL39-RB21 cooling outflow area fraction seen at Monaco. By eye the MCL39 cannon looks about half the size of the RB21 cannon. By pixel count, the MCL39 cannon looks to have ~60% of the area of the RB21 cannon (25k px & 44k px respectively by my measurement). Exhaust pipe diamter is effectively equal on both cars and can be ignored. Photo scale, pixel precision, and some guesswork on the exact shape of the lower side of the cannon create inaccuracy, maybe around +/- 5% here.

The louver pack was counted separately--estimated from separate photos of similar parallax since the louvers are not entirely visible when viewed from the rear coaxial to the longitudinal axis of the car. By eye, the MCL39 has about 1/2-1/3 of the louver exit area as the RB21, and by pixel (~1000 px vs. ~3300 px respectively) it is about 30%. 5-10% margin of error on these estimates.

Suspension portal exits are apparent on both cars (one per side) and seem to be of similar size, amounting to maybe 5% of total cooling outflow area. These are assumed equal for this post.

Area of MCL39 cooling outflow as % of RB21 cooling outflow area at Monaco:
Cannon including spine: 60%
Louver pack: 30%
Suspension portal: 100%

If I can scale the louver & cannon measurements to one another then that will provide the total outflow area discrepancy, but off the cuff it seems like the MCL39 had ~60% of the RB21's total cooling outflow area at Monaco.

Image

The topic of aero correlation/estimation issues at RB earlier this season seems appropriate considering this. Beyond inherent, major packaging differences between the two cars (imo the main cause) and the use of different PUs, incorrect sizing/shaping of the RB20/RB21's ducting could help explain these major differences.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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Interesting post.

In terms of rear wing/beam wing levels for Spain 2025 from lowest to highest downforce:

Mclaren (lowest) < Red Bull < Ferrari < Mercedes (highest)

In terms of ride heights from lowest to highest

Mclaren (lowest) < Ferrari < Red Bull/Mercedes (highest)

Verstappen was the only driver of the top 4 teams that was flat through the final corner.
It doesn't turn.

vorticism
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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"Highest" in comparison to teams themselves (at other circuits) or in a presumed absolute scale? The Mclaren RW might be making similar downforce to the RB RW despite looking like less wing. The Mclaren should have a greater mass of higher velocity air through the same region reflective of their narrower bodywork upstream.

Would be good to study if louver outflow air mixed with freestream is generally higher speed at the RW region than had it been ducted to cannon outflow. Ferrari in '24 chose all louvers and almost no cannon, and I wonder if it's because outflow mixing post-louvers is a good way to accelerate it, or at least simpler/cheaper to implement vs tuned ducting which may be more finicky but maybe ultimately better if optimized. Mclaren chose a middle ground of two large louvers & a small cannon. RB by comparison, for the past 3 seasons (and o.c. prior to '22) used louvers only for extra cooling for use in warmer ambient temps, relying mostly upon the cannon/full internal ducting.

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2025 car comparison thread

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Top 4 Post-TD Estimated Relative Downforce Levels (in 2024 WCC order)

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Beam Wings and Rear Wings are left out because they are changed and used to trim the overall downforce level for each car (along with ride height and suspension setup etc.) This can be a bit of a misleading chart, so a few disclaimers first:

🔸 estimates are just my own estimates, we have no way to get precise info from all teams
🔸 estimates are rated, not relative full downforce levels to each other (e.g I'd give old Sauber floor 1/10 on both ends)
🔸 estimated numbers are there to put a figure on the full picture that I will make in this post

🟧 Even though McLaren is the standout car this season, I'd not give their floor full 10/10 mark on front end. They have the biggest front wing of the field, and they managed to make it work with their floor - which is a different but equal aerodynamic challenge - and I believe this wing design provides the big part of front-end downforce actually.

Car is very adaptable and has no weakness basically, its strengths are relative to the field each weekend and sometimes other teams manage to make the setup which maximises their own car. As I said before last weekend - they really shouldn't suffer that much from the TD (despite clearly less flexing of the front wing flaps now) and they didn't.

🟥 As I've explained several times, Ferrari's concept relies on front floor downforce generation and "trimming" the balance with rear end ride height mostly, to provide good traction when the setup isn't compromised. Because of this, Ferrari have reduced their front wing size (in front view) after 2022 and continued with original 2023 concept after their late-2024 change in Singapore.

Ferrari's biggest problem remains the heavy setup compromise they make in each race, which sometimes manages to work better and sometimes not (like Miami). This setup compromise is always based on higher ride-heights since R03 in Suzuka and sometimes they also have to sacrifice low-speed performance in the race to be able to keep high-speed performance and avoid excessive tyre deg.

If they manage to update their rear suspension properly in Austria or Silverstone, they could be a serious nuisance to McLaren on a regular basis.

🟦 RB21 is very much improved since Bahrain tests now and, relative to the field, in a much better state than RB20 was this time last year. In all honesty, Verstappen's penalty in Spain is therefore much worse - he really threw away at least 9 valuable points on Sunday. In my view, they may have a bit more balanced downforce distribution on the floor than McLaren and definitely have smaller front wing in frontal area - which is a pretty good indication of angles and downforce levels too.

The weakness remains low-speed performance and traction to some extent. I don't think their deg and tyre management are a problem anymore, Miami/Imola package greatly improved overall rear end downforce stability and this directly helps to reduce tyre sliding and unstable management during the race.

I am certain they didn't quite nail the setup in Barcelona, because the car should have been a bit closer in Q3 to pole position - just my personal opinion based on every race and development since Bahrain 2022. Having a completely different strategy makes it impossible to compare their race to McLaren.

⬛️ Mercedes made their best car relative to the front-runners with W16 in this regulation cycle. It started as the 2nd best car overall in the first few rounds. As Ferrari and Red Bull got on top of their setups and updates, Mercedes dropped back in relative performance. I believe they don't have the floor downforce level too far from McLaren, but using smaller wings typically (Barcelona was an outlier so far) reduces their overall downforce levels.

Imola saw the updated TD-compliant front wing and new rear suspension, which was discarded for unknown period after that race. In Monaco they had a lot of trouble during 3 FP sessions and went into Q setup-blind. Russell was happy and not bad in Q1 (with old front wing!), but we were left short of true performance because of PU shutdown in Q2. In Barcelona, despite hotter temperatures (which are nowhere near as bi problem as they were in 2024), I believe they should have been clearly ahead of Ferrari if they weren't hit at all with front wing TD - but they were behind Ferrari in the race.

Canada will give us all the remaining answers on their status, I was surprised they chose to use Monaco-level rear wing in Spain and I consider this a step towards balancing the car having the stiffer rear wing and requiring more rear downforce in high-speed to keep the balance as close to ideal as possible.
"If anyone was to ask for my opinion, which, I note, they're not..." - The Fellowship

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
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